Queering Barbie

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Bi Pod, a podcast about all things bisexual. I'm Evan and my pronouns are

[00:00:05] Vay and Nem. And I'm Christina, my pronouns are she and her. We welcome anyone who has any kind

[00:00:11] of relationship with or curiosity about queerness. The Bi Pod is an ad-free community supported

[00:00:16] podcast. You can support us for as little as $2 a month. To join the community or get more information

[00:00:22] about the podcast, visit patreon.com slash the bi pod. This podcast is one piece of the long history

[00:00:29] of bisexual and queer discourse. We don't know everything at all. We're here to be part of the

[00:00:34] conversation. Let's get into it.

[00:00:36] Hi Barbie! Hi Barbie! I do miss that part of the summer when everybody was saying hi Barbie.

[00:01:01] I also miss when people were like my Ken's job is yeah those were funny.

[00:01:09] Your Ken's job is shipping? Yeah, not shipping. Yeah it's box. Yes my Ken's job is box. He comes

[00:01:17] as his very own laptop and a small desk that lives in the corner of our living room because Barbie

[00:01:23] has her own office in the two bedroom. Thank you. He didn't see the movie and so I had a good time

[00:01:31] making all of these jokes that didn't make sense to him. It was good.

[00:01:40] Vay, you may have noticed we're talking about the Barbie movie today. We're here. Yeah before we

[00:01:46] get into the Barbie movie, I wanted to make a quick note. I mean we have noticed that our intro

[00:01:53] is a little bit different. We decided to remove the definition that we had there of bisexuality.

[00:02:02] Yeah we got some feedback about it that the definition that we were offering was excluding or

[00:02:14] potentially excluding folks who identify as bisexual but are not attracted to people who share

[00:02:22] their gender which was really valuable feedback. We included that definition because when we started

[00:02:31] the show, we really wanted it to be clear that to us bisexuality is not defined by being attracted

[00:02:38] to men and being attracted to women which is the definition that I feel like we grew up in,

[00:02:46] I guess, which is very binary does not leave space for me. For yourself.

[00:02:56] Yes and for people of diverse genders so that was where we were coming from is wanting to name

[00:03:05] that it's not specifically about being attracted to men and women but in our effort to

[00:03:16] be more inclusive we were inadvertently exclusionary. I really appreciate that we got that

[00:03:25] feedback and we talked about it and decided we actually don't need to offer a definition of bisexuality.

[00:03:36] It doesn't influence the content of the show really and what matters is your own definition

[00:03:45] of bisexuality. Yeah and in the bisexual manifesto which we referenced a few times on the show

[00:03:51] there's a line that says there are as many definitions of bisexuality as there are bisexual people

[00:03:56] which we firmly believe. So if you have a definition of bisexuality or your bisexuality

[00:04:02] you want to share with us. We'd love to hear it. Yeah DM, email, we think we have a contact

[00:04:08] us on the website. We do all kinds of ways to get a hold and we have a phone number

[00:04:14] and maybe we'll do an episode in the future with some of those definitions.

[00:04:20] Talk about it but feel free to send them now if you have them. Yeah and it's really important for

[00:04:25] us that our listeners feel welcome and seen on the show so we really appreciate that feedback

[00:04:31] and just know that we're always open to that kind of feedback. We don't know everything as we say

[00:04:40] in the introduction and so hopefully this change suits our mission of making space for folks.

[00:04:48] Yeah anyways like we said we were talking about the Barbie movie today.

[00:04:55] Evan do you have any personal history with the Barbie franchise?

[00:05:00] I mean I did. I had Barbies. Great. Did you do gay things with your Barbies?

[00:05:10] I actually don't specifically remember, I mean like probably I did.

[00:05:15] There was definitely a foreign occasion. I'm sure there was a vacation out in my Barbies.

[00:05:22] I don't remember the specific gender dynamics though actually.

[00:05:25] Yeah I think I had like a stereotypical Ken. I must have but no core memories with him.

[00:05:34] I did have a Prince Eric Ken that I liked but I think it's just because I liked Prince Eric

[00:05:41] but I had many of Barbies who were like sizzling with each other and such. Other such

[00:05:48] illicit activities. Good times. Formative youth. Where did I?

[00:05:52] I'm like was this on a podcast with someone like telling me this they would like,

[00:05:57] I don't know where I heard this but somebody talking about like putting their Barbies in a hat

[00:06:01] and like shaking it around and that was like then the Barbie's having sex.

[00:06:08] If you know where I heard that let me know. I wish I did. That is so funny. That's so funny.

[00:06:18] I just love what like kids do with their toys.

[00:06:24] Yeah well this is famously not a history podcast but I do I'll put a link in the show notes to an

[00:06:31] episode on the history of Barbie that the show American hysteria put out. If you don't listen

[00:06:38] to that show I really like it. The host Chelsea Webber Smith is really like a question

[00:06:46] interesting fun and they bring on a lot of really cool guests but what I liked about that

[00:06:53] episode and the reason I wanted to kind of mention it is that it helped me contextualize

[00:07:00] some Barbie history because when I was born women could like get a credit card and all of that

[00:07:07] but when Barbie came into the world like those things were not true and so like one example that I

[00:07:13] was like oh this like really reframes things for me is that Barbie's dream house like was a thing

[00:07:21] before women could have their own mortgage like without a man's co-signing which doesn't make it

[00:07:30] a feminist text necessarily but I do think that like that's context that like

[00:07:36] me in my generation like I think is lost yeah and so like these kinds of I don't know the

[00:07:44] context helps me reframe and like think about our relationship to Barbie a little bit differently.

[00:07:50] um and also I learned a little bit about um Ken Hanler. I did not I knew that Barbie was named

[00:07:59] after the creator's daughter. I did not know that Ken was named after her son which seems a

[00:08:07] bit strange but I just have to assume that they maybe weren't boyfriend girlfriend at Ken's inception

[00:08:13] and I'll put a link in the description also to some information about Ken Hanler but he was queer

[00:08:23] was not out. He directed a few films and he ultimately died of AIDS

[00:08:32] and his family, his parents specifically made a public statement that he died of something

[00:08:38] also I think if cancer like he was denied the reality of a situation posthumously and I think

[00:08:46] that was a history that I did know anything about so I wanted to bring that to the pod.

[00:08:51] um I also think it's like interesting um as we talk today about like the queer elements of the movie

[00:08:59] we'll probably talk a lot about Ken um I think it's interesting that like we uh the person that can

[00:09:06] and inspired by was a queer man who was not recognized, seen, celebrated, allowed to be out

[00:09:17] and still like the kendall at least me and my personal reading is a queer icon um and that doesn't

[00:09:27] I don't know doesn't fix anything um but I just thought that was some interesting kind of

[00:09:31] yeah color to the whole thing um yeah yeah so shout out to to Ken

[00:09:42] that's my history corner with Christina thank you

[00:09:48] we love historian Barbie historian Barbie this Barbie's job is museum

[00:09:53] is book um yeah I'm thinking about a magic earring Ken who I'm like do we really destroy people

[00:10:02] really look at this and think like this is a straight man which I guess other if you if people haven't

[00:10:08] seen if you've seen people talking about Barbie on the internet you've maybe seen this but um

[00:10:14] there was a kendall was this in the 90s um and the thought was like that he was probably just designed

[00:10:27] based on like nightlife culture um but uh the reality is that he was wearing a uh

[00:10:35] cock ring around his neck um so when you see if you look up magic earring kendall he's wearing

[00:10:41] this like necklace that has a ring at the end which I guess maybe to straight people was just like

[00:10:48] in fashion um but boy is it gay yeah it was in the 90s 93 yeah icon so

[00:10:59] that's the danger of just letting straight people out into the world you know

[00:11:01] yeah are so naive um there's no impressionable and that is the thesis ultimately

[00:11:07] um

[00:11:13] oh we should say there will be spoilers in this episode that seems fine because if you haven't seen

[00:11:18] Barbie you probably aren't interested in seeing Barbie yeah I would also say like it's a movie

[00:11:25] that I mean there certainly are but it has a plot um but it's not like the plots not the best part

[00:11:32] of the movie I would say I mean I think that makes it sound like there's something wrong with the

[00:11:36] plot no the plot is fine yes but it's not um I don't know it's not a political thriller or something

[00:11:42] where you're like it really turns on this like story element like it's not like that time that you

[00:11:47] randomly ruin the first season of Game of Thrones for our listeners like 10 years later like

[00:11:53] stuff I didn't you misheard me and then you ruined it I think I cut it out but I think

[00:12:01] that other people may not know what we're talking about but that's fine

[00:12:07] um we got the spoilers ahead but that is probably fine you could still enjoy it yeah ultimately Barbie

[00:12:12] is a romp mm-hmm um I think we should start with the titular character yeah should we just give a

[00:12:20] high level overview if someone hasn't seen the movie and yeah take care of it okay so

[00:12:28] uh we open in Barbie land which is the Barbie homeland um home of the Barbie yes um

[00:12:39] and it's very idyllic there uh Christina will tell us later about it being the Garden of Eden

[00:12:44] um and all the Barbies are just living their best life um the kens are also there but they're not

[00:12:53] really that important um and then uh stereotypical Barbie which I think prior to this movie we would

[00:13:01] just said Barbie like what you think of when you say Barbie um which is a line from the movie yes

[00:13:07] um played by mario robby weird things start happening to her so the imaginary shower that she takes

[00:13:17] the water is cold um her waffles get burned yes her imaginary milk is expired and

[00:13:28] her feet go flat which is you know horrifying yes that's like the horror movie scene for the Barbie

[00:13:34] scene yeah um and like she says something to the other Barbies about like do you ever have thoughts

[00:13:41] of death do you guys ever think about dying yeah um and so they the other Barbies don't know how

[00:13:49] to fix her so they send her to weird Barbie um which is exactly what you are probably imagining

[00:13:57] played by Kate McKinnon um she's permanently in the splits which was so funny because I feel like

[00:14:04] you can like kind of tell like when they're using a body double like she's like in the scene but

[00:14:09] like in the background and blurred a little bit it's kind of funny um and weird Barbie tells her

[00:14:16] that like there's a uh a portal that has opened between Barbie land and the real world because of

[00:14:24] the ties between this Barbie and the girl playing with her um and it's making things go wrong and so

[00:14:32] Barbie has to go to the real world and find the person playing with her and like fix whatever's going

[00:14:41] yeah so Barbie reluctantly yeah she weird Barbie is like do you want to know the truth or not like

[00:14:52] she holds up a Birkenstock and a high heel and she's supposed to pick the Birkenstock but Barbie's

[00:14:57] like I pick the heel I don't want that yeah um and so Barbie you know sets off to the real world

[00:15:06] and her Ken decides that he's gonna tag along as played by Ryan Gosling and um Barbie

[00:15:16] doesn't have any particular feelings about Ken she's like he's just this guy that's around

[00:15:21] and Ken is obsessed with Barbie there's a line in the movie about like Barbie has a good day every day

[00:15:27] but Ken only has a good day when Barbie looks at him so he's always trying to like get her attention and

[00:15:32] he follows her into the real world and she reluctantly agrees to let him come it's so funny because

[00:15:37] she's like literally singing an indigo girl song like I'm like she doesn't want a man here

[00:15:42] and yet there is Ken with his roller skates yes um so they enter the real world there's some

[00:15:50] antics Ken and Barbie get split up somehow Ken gets from Venice Beach to Century City which if

[00:15:57] if you're not familiar with the geography of Los Angeles that would take so long yeah you couldn't

[00:16:02] just you know walk over in the way that they show him in the movie he just like goes for a little

[00:16:06] walk and suddenly he's in a completely different style I know the people who don't live in LA

[00:16:11] love to hear podcasters talk about the different like neighborhoods in LA but you all have to

[00:16:16] understand this is uh it doesn't make sense no it interrupted my viewing of the film yes

[00:16:23] for yeah it just doesn't it doesn't track but it's the Barbie movie so we let it go yeah um and so

[00:16:33] so Ken goes off on a little sojourn where he learns about patriarchy which he initially thinks is

[00:16:43] about horses um but he's very into horses um and he's like oh my god in the real world men are in

[00:16:51] charge as opposed to in Barbie land where the men are definitely not in charge meanwhile Barbie

[00:17:00] finds the girl that she thinks is playing with her um this preteen named Sosha who just absolutely

[00:17:09] eviscerates Barbie in a way that only teenagers can and she calls her a fascia yeah and Barbie's like I

[00:17:17] don't control the railways or the flow of commerce

[00:17:20] and just like says all the all the criticisms that people have of Barbie about like unrealistic

[00:17:29] beauty standards what have you um as it turns out it is not Sosha who is playing with Barbie

[00:17:39] it is Sosha's mom america Ferrera who seems very sad about her daughter growing up

[00:17:46] and she doesn't seem particularly happy at her job at Mattel and it seems like a life just isn't

[00:17:52] really going great so she's been spending her time designing Barbies that are like um

[00:17:57] irrepressible thoughts of death Barbie yes full body cellulite Barbie just like weird

[00:18:03] yeah depression Barbie yes yeah and so that is what has been influencing Barbie um

[00:18:11] and so america Ferrera's character finds out because of her job at Mattel there's a Barbie in the

[00:18:15] real world and the executives at Mattel are freaking out about this at one point in the past a skipper

[00:18:22] came into the real world and she offered to babysit someone's kids and then tried to take the toddler

[00:18:28] surfing um so they're really concerned they got to get Barbie there's a car chase that takes them

[00:18:37] from century city to Long Beach yeah I think canonically like it's not actually Long Beach but

[00:18:42] physically and then I were like wait that's our city yeah I know that freeway exit so there's a

[00:18:52] car chase through Long Beach and um basically Barbie realizes that they need to go back to Barbie land

[00:19:03] and when they get back Ken has taken it upon himself to institute a patriarchy in Barbie land

[00:19:11] and so now all the Ken's are ruling Barbie land and they've like brainwashed the other Barbies

[00:19:16] who just walk around and made outfits and ask if Ken's won a brusky beer

[00:19:23] and Ken has turned Barbie's dream house into his mojo dojo kasa house

[00:19:29] and um Barbie's very dejected about this she's like maybe one of the other leadership oriented

[00:19:40] Barbies will turn things around but they have to act quickly because in 48 hours the Ken's are

[00:19:46] going to institute a constitutional amendment to make them permanently in control of Barbie land

[00:19:52] the stakes are really through the route yeah and they get kingdom land kingdom land yeah um a lot

[00:19:59] of redundancies they love it and basically I don't know through the power of identifying the struggles

[00:20:09] women um America for era and Barbie unbrainwash the other Barbies and very easily manipulate the Ken's

[00:20:20] and stop the constitutional amendment from being passed thus saving Barbie land and the matriarchal

[00:20:29] democracy in which they live and Barbie helps Ken realize that he does matter even if he's not

[00:20:42] being validated by the object of his desire aka her and he has a personal breakthrough

[00:20:54] of sorts yes um I guess his masculinity is less fragile now um and then Barbie having now got on

[00:21:06] this journey and learned about the real world no longer feels like she fits in in in Barbie land

[00:21:13] and becomes a human thanks to Ruth handler the creator of Barbie and maybe also she's god yeah

[00:21:26] Greta Gerwig has confirmed that in her reading of the text which is significant um that

[00:21:32] Ruth is god and Barbie is Jesus it doesn't quite track if you want to go through the whole Bible but

[00:21:39] that is like a really funny framework to like see the movie through Christina told me this and I was

[00:21:45] like does Barbie die for our sins and she was like dot we're not enough with the details yeah um no

[00:21:52] I would say no yeah um I suppose Jesus did other things I honestly wouldn't know but

[00:22:02] um yeah we don't have to get into the biblical text that is actually we do just

[00:22:09] but that is movie overall I guess I didn't we will talk about this um

[00:22:18] I think that this is a movie about gender yeah um absolutely I agree yeah um

[00:22:26] and uh in a more a more in-depth way than the reading that I think people who are not thinking about

[00:22:36] gender a lot might say of like it's a movie about feminism and patriarchy like it is a movie

[00:22:42] about those things ostensibly but like gender performance and gender dynamics and like

[00:22:49] uh a lot of things that you might not a surface reading you like maybe might miss and just be like

[00:22:57] yeah yeah there's like a lot of camp I guess like in it um which is just hilarious yeah

[00:23:05] this such a funny movie I'm like laughing out loud watching it yeah it is really funny yeah so we

[00:23:11] will talk more about the specifics of a movie but that's the baseline information you need if

[00:23:16] you don't know anything great recap that was impressive thank you I try not to get I sometimes

[00:23:21] I get bogged out in the details I'm like let me tell you this funny thing yeah the first time

[00:23:24] we tried to do a movie episode about Jennifer's body our recap was the whole episode um great job

[00:23:31] another time thank you um yeah um so Barbie stereotypical Barbie yeah um in my opinion and also

[00:23:40] in the opinion of Margot Robbie which is important as she is the actress um is an asexual icon

[00:23:47] we don't think at least not in the text I don't think that she experiences romantic or sexual

[00:23:54] feelings except for maybe for America for which we will get into later

[00:23:58] um well she can be asexual and yeah romantic yeah or have romantic attraction yeah um

[00:24:06] yeah Margot Robbie said in an interview that she played Barbie as asexual and so I mean if the text

[00:24:16] is well first of all you can read against the text as we love to do but the text is not advocating

[00:24:23] for Barbie having any kind of sexual desire and the actress playing her did not play her as experiencing

[00:24:29] sexual desire and so I mean there's nothing there's literally no contradiction whatsoever like it

[00:24:38] Barbie's asexual yeah absolutely absolutely I'll put um a link to the interview in the um

[00:24:43] I was gonna say in the chat like this is a zoom meeting and the description is well um

[00:24:48] but like I think her Margot's decision to do that I'm sure was collaborative um

[00:24:55] makes sense within the text because like the the point is that like Barbie can be sexualized

[00:25:03] but like she is not involved in that herself um and still is like impacted by like rape culture

[00:25:11] and patriarchy even as someone who is like opted out of those things like that was uh

[00:25:17] Margot Robbie's like uh reason like the road she took into that decision um and then what we get

[00:25:25] is a surpresentation yeah which is lovely mm-hmm also weird Barbie is not ace weird Barbie wants to see

[00:25:32] Ken's plastic mound which is interesting because I was like I wonder if this is just like an all

[00:25:37] Barbie thing but like weird Barbie is trying to get it yeah and I love that for her also yeah um

[00:25:47] it will and we don't weird Barbies the only other Barbie that we spend really like substantive

[00:25:54] time with and even that is not a ton but the other Barbies are more like we see them in snippets

[00:26:00] like an ensemble yes and none of the other Barbies seem to have any they don't make any commentary

[00:26:09] about like their relationships to the Ken's so based on the little bit of information that we have

[00:26:16] it does not appear as though all Barbies are asexual

[00:26:23] mm-hmm they could be like their dolls um well I guess we know we know that um

[00:26:31] that weird Barbie at the very least is not um

[00:26:37] yeah we can't end so good she's so good so funny um

[00:26:45] but yeah so it does feel like a specific character choice as opposed to like a

[00:26:51] um

[00:26:55] it wasn't born out of a sort of like dehumanization of like yeah Barbies are dolls and therefore

[00:27:02] they like don't experience this it was a specific choice yeah and that feels very different

[00:27:08] like representation intentionally versus like representation by default yeah Ken can be different

[00:27:14] and so I appreciate that we have that yeah um it's also not clear to me if Ken has any

[00:27:22] romantic or sexual interest he's certainly interested in Barbie but like

[00:27:27] perhaps not in a romantic way unclear don't you yeah so Ken is oriented to getting Barbies attention

[00:27:37] and but there's actually nothing in the text that necessarily suggests that he

[00:27:46] wants anything from Barbie other than to be like validated in his gender performance

[00:27:53] mm-hmm yeah he's like Barbie watch me like surf this wave or whatever yeah or like let me tell you

[00:27:59] what my job which is beach yes and that's like not about her that's about like being perceived by a Barbie

[00:28:04] yes um he doesn't express like there's nothing about her that he seems to like particularly

[00:28:15] or like he's not um it is very clear that he wants her attention

[00:28:23] it is not clear whether that is actually based on any internal experience that he is having

[00:28:30] or if that is just externally motivated like you see him um he tries to kiss her at a couple of

[00:28:38] points which she is either like outright oblivious to um or like actively avoids and there's also a line

[00:28:49] early in the movie where she's trying to like send him home for the night and he's like I thought I

[00:28:58] could I'd stay over tonight if she's like why yeah to do what yeah um and she so she asked why

[00:29:09] and he's like because we're boyfriend girlfriend and she's like well to do what like what would we do

[00:29:17] and he goes I don't know he's like honestly I'm really not sure it's such a good line read

[00:29:24] yeah this is Ryan God's Gosling's best performance absolutely and I like as we were rewatching the movie

[00:29:33] when that line came up I turned to Christina and I was like this is compulsory heterosexuality he's like

[00:29:39] I don't know what we're gonna do I just know we're supposed to be doing something

[00:29:43] so funny and she's like um well it's girls night so bye you don't live here yeah

[00:29:56] which then we find out that it's unc we don't know where the Ken's live where they go all the

[00:30:00] Barbies have dream houses no one knows yeah yeah America for her is like or maybe Sasha is like

[00:30:07] where did the Ken's live and or where they sleep and Barbies like honestly I've never thought about

[00:30:15] which is funny um Ken stereotypical Ken we'll just call him Ken Ryan Gosling um is like

[00:30:25] very like has very clear um relationship dynamics with a few other Ken's like there's one

[00:30:33] he's like very competitive with yes um rival his rival Ken that he publicly threatens to beach off

[00:30:47] my sister took my nieces to see this movie on opening day like not really knowing

[00:30:52] that it wasn't quite a kids movie and I just want to know like I wish I could have been there

[00:30:58] to like see them react to because like some things I'm like I'm not sure that my like eight-year-old

[00:31:03] niece knows what patriarchy is they like the movie but I'm like I would have loved to see like

[00:31:09] what went over their heads and what did you know I like the beach off seat I'm like this is one

[00:31:14] that would probably like it's funny and also yeah I'm sure the kids it's just funny because

[00:31:19] they're just saying the words beach over and over again in a nonsense context I um probably

[00:31:25] they're not um getting the the tone yeah hopefully your nieces weren't thinking is this a hand

[00:31:33] job joke yeah I don't think so unlikely as well as the other children who saw this um but yeah like

[00:31:41] he there's this very like honestly erotic like relationship he has and then there's another Ken

[00:31:47] who was just like I would die for you like he's like I would do anything for Ken anything all the time

[00:31:52] um it's so funny I wish they had other names where I could be like Ken and Ken but they're all

[00:31:57] just Ken's yeah um famously that's the song they do have different um like in the subtitles

[00:32:03] their name does like this Ken this Ken but those names aren't used like in the film yeah um so I

[00:32:12] couldn't tell you which Ken is yeah he's which yeah but it's interesting because like

[00:32:18] that scene that you're talking about where Barbie is like it's girls night I'm hanging out with my

[00:32:24] friends like because of those I mean one of them is competitive and also filled with sexual tension

[00:32:31] like his other friends or the other Ken's I'm like wouldn't they also be hanging out together

[00:32:36] at night like it seems like they have interest in each other but I guess I'm clear don't know

[00:32:42] they're all just thinking about the Barbies I don't know I guess we don't see the other Ken so

[00:32:49] the other Ken's definitely want the attention of the Barbies but they seem to be a cheat they

[00:32:58] seem to be getting that attention yeah for the most part um they don't seem dissatisfied it's just

[00:33:04] stereotypical Ryan Gosling Ken that is like my Barbie yeah he also like um gets upset at one point

[00:33:14] because he like thinks that Barbie is cheating on him with like competitor Ken which is what I'll

[00:33:20] call him now and Barbie's like Ken is just a friend and I'm like this Ken is also just

[00:33:25] just yeah but like there's nothing in the text that shows that any other Ken is trying to like

[00:33:32] steal Ken's Barbie but he's just like she's supposed to he's in some here extremely

[00:33:39] masculinity extremely and I think there's something interesting happening because

[00:33:48] Ken seems to really want to fit in with the other Ken like he wants to be validated

[00:34:00] uh in his Ken this he wants to like he doesn't want to be the Ken that you know can't get his

[00:34:07] Barbie's attention or like he seems he's like very embarrassed when he like tries to surf but he

[00:34:13] can't because he his job is beach um not surf no he's not lifeguard Ken he's not surfing Ken

[00:34:22] he's beach Ken he tries to get a job in the real world and he's like do you have any openings for

[00:34:28] beach uh or whatever and the guys like oh like he's talking to a lifeguard and he's like oh no I

[00:34:34] I'm not qualified to do any of that I'm qualified to stand right here um and then he gets my

[00:34:39] he's like I can't even beach here but yeah there's something I like haven't quite um articulated what

[00:34:49] it is but I think there's something really interesting happening in this movie with group dynamics and

[00:34:58] individualism like Ken wants the approval of the other Ken's but he's not getting that by hanging out

[00:35:13] with the Ken's he's like trying to get it by like standing out by like uh

[00:35:20] uh he has to be special in some way like with the trying to get Barbie's attention with um

[00:35:29] his rivalry with competitor Ken like it can't just be there's no uh

[00:35:39] collectivism now you do see the Ken's sort of come together

[00:35:46] when patriarchy is introduced into Barbie land but then even that is like pretty easily undercut

[00:35:53] when the Barbies come up with a plan to like make the Ken's jealous of each other

[00:35:58] which is a really great scene and even that sort of like feels performative like uh Ken

[00:36:04] is not upset that Barbie is like distracted necessarily he's upset that she's distracted by another

[00:36:12] Ken yeah like they make the Ken's jealous by like switching Ken's basically they're all like

[00:36:17] sitting at the beach being saying at and uh they just like get up and walk over to a different Ken

[00:36:22] and everyone's like what's going on but it's like if they had just gotten up and walked like

[00:36:26] to the water I don't think anybody would have cared any of the Ken's would have cared you know

[00:36:33] yeah and so that leads to like a fight with the Ken's they do seem to a Ken civil war yeah

[00:36:39] um they do seem I guess after a musical number to then come together unfortunately it's already

[00:36:48] too late the coup has already been successful yeah or the anti-coup yeah that's true it's hard

[00:36:55] to know yeah it's like is this insurrection or was the Ken's insurrection I don't know yeah um

[00:37:04] I don't I don't know very much about like the political um like tone of Barbie land so it's hard

[00:37:10] to say but the new constitution was upheld that the well the the new one that the Barbies

[00:37:19] I think it's just the original yeah well the vote results were respected so you can assume some um

[00:37:27] you know some stability yeah the economy I think it feels it makes me think a lot about

[00:37:36] uh American individualism and particularly the intersection of that with masculinity

[00:37:44] masculinity but like the way that men get the approval of other men is by like not needing anyone else

[00:37:54] like um

[00:38:00] with the

[00:38:02] I guess with the exception of the Ken that is like I would die for you

[00:38:09] yeah that Ken has no interest in Barbie let me tell you there's no way he probably has a Barbie

[00:38:14] but he's like whatever girl and her for Ken

[00:38:18] um we sort of like don't actually see the Ken's like being friends yeah that's true

[00:38:28] um they're like associates yeah in a way like the Barbies are friends yeah they hang out and

[00:38:35] stuff but yeah the Ken's are just like well I guess we're all Ken's here yeah I don't know

[00:38:42] there's yeah there's just something going on there for me yeah

[00:38:45] yeah there's something about like achieving masculinity by way of like controlling women

[00:38:53] or by way of like benefiting from women's labor to make it look like you are self-sufficient when in fact

[00:38:59] your partner is doing everything for you um that's like not happening in Barbie land because the

[00:39:05] Barbies are like we're having a girls night we're doing a bespoke dance choreography um and so

[00:39:10] like without like the availability of Barbie labor um that like uh I don't know that path towards

[00:39:20] displaying masculinity is sort of like interrupted um or it's not available to them the way that it

[00:39:26] is available in the real world um and it seems like they're still kind of trying to take that same

[00:39:32] path but it's like not available which is interesting and the and result is just like homo erotic

[00:39:39] tension between the Ken's yeah because Ken with the exception of stereotypical Barbie he's not

[00:39:51] trying to look good for the Barbies mm-hmm that's true yeah he only has eyes for Barbie and all of the Ken

[00:40:01] this yeah um and I think like the the gender binary in this movie is like Barbie and Ken I don't

[00:40:11] like they never say like oh the boys or the girls or the women or whatever it's like the Ken's and

[00:40:16] the Barbies and then there's Alan who we'll talk about um and something you mentioned when we were

[00:40:23] like thinking this through earlier is that the only care like Ken or Barbie that uh seems to step

[00:40:33] out of that like collective identity as a weird Barbie mm-hmm but then she is like ostracized

[00:40:42] like she is a Barbie yeah but she's not like Barbie enough mm-hmm whereas like

[00:40:48] Ken it wants to be Ken off yes that's a joke you'll get if you see the movie yes um

[00:40:58] she got all of the Barbies have a thing that distinguishes them

[00:41:04] the president the astrophysicist yeah the pilot whatever um which does become a source of tension

[00:41:10] for stereotypical Barbie because she's like I'm not anything like I am not good enough

[00:41:15] she's like I don't know how to fly a plane I've never been the president yeah um so they have

[00:41:24] there has to be enough distinction that you you have some kind of identifier you are this thing

[00:41:33] but not so much that you can't fit in with everyone else which is why

[00:41:41] weird Barbie sort of doesn't live as part of the Barbie collective she's on this weird house on the

[00:41:48] hill um and I suppose in some ways both stereotypical Ken and Barbie are like that is the fear

[00:42:02] of like what could happen to them I mean you don't see that specifically named with Ken

[00:42:08] you do see it a little bit more explicitly with stereotypical Barbie but I think in both cases

[00:42:14] there is maybe that's the source of some of the like angst is like well if I if my Barbie doesn't

[00:42:22] like pay attention to me um if I don't have the Barbie pointy toes like I like will not be able

[00:42:35] to like fit in with my community and therefore I'm gonna like live a life of isolation

[00:42:45] although actually we do see that weird Barbie has other not um titular weird Barbies but other

[00:42:53] like other Barbies that are weird yes um Barbies that have been like discontinued oh yeah like

[00:42:58] the the skipper that grows boobs yes growing up skipper I think um yes there's a Barbie that had a

[00:43:03] TV in her back which oh yeah I was telling Christina I forgot about this when you were asking me

[00:43:09] about my relationship to Barbie there was a girl that lived down the street for me that her family

[00:43:13] had more money I didn't quite have the context for that at the time but she had this Barbie that had

[00:43:18] the the TV and it's back because I had like a camera in its chest or something so you could like

[00:43:24] I don't know see what was I don't even remember the specifics but I remember that she had it and

[00:43:30] I was jealous yeah so like that Barbie is fair in the movie um and as we're talking about this I'm like oh

[00:43:40] queerness you like want to be validated like before you have come to term with your queerness

[00:43:47] you're like oh my god if I'm not like all these other straight people I'm gonna be like

[00:43:52] excluded and I'm gonna be alone forever and live in my weird house um

[00:44:00] but actually there are other people who are having that same experience and you can all

[00:44:04] live together in your little weird commune and that's the sequel yeah yeah that's a really good point

[00:44:13] um I'm also thinking about how like that like tension for Ken is like I think it stems from like

[00:44:21] the movies kind of joke about Ken which is that like he is an accessory to Barbie so like all

[00:44:26] of the Barbies have like there's no Barbie that's like I'm beach Barbie or I mean there's a beach

[00:44:31] Barbie but like all the characters are like I'm a mermaid I'm a pilot I like whatever have this

[00:44:38] specific job um and so like Ken's job beach is like hollow and he's not good at it because it's not

[00:44:45] a real thing um and so like that's not fulfilling and does not like inform his identity in any meaningful

[00:44:52] even though we kind of see him try to explain to Barbie what it is and so like if he doesn't have

[00:44:58] that and then he doesn't have Barbie's attention he's like well what am I doing here at them yeah um

[00:45:04] and that like is a a joke about the toy that also like then leads him to like try to do patriarchy

[00:45:13] like it's an interesting yeah he's looking for meaning yeah which in

[00:45:20] is actually this the parallel journey that Barbie is on yeah absolutely um and I think like Barbie

[00:45:30] sort of has like the inverted starting point which is that she's like I am Barbie and that has

[00:45:37] a lot of meaning but then when she like meets Sasha who's like Barbie makes people feel bad

[00:45:41] and also you're a fascist she's like what are you talking about and then she's like well since

[00:45:46] I'm not a pilot and I've never been the president I don't have any Nobel Prize is not even one

[00:45:52] I must be meaningless and it's like she's almost experiencing what Sasha like accuses her

[00:45:59] of causing real girls to experience um because all of her other Barbies like have a job and she's

[00:46:06] like yeah I'm stereotypical Barbie she also like seems to be I mean she's the protagonist so

[00:46:12] it's hard to know but like she seems to be like the primary Barbie like in the Barbie universe

[00:46:19] like the party is at her house and everything and it also seems to me like maybe stereotypical Ken

[00:46:25] is like trying to match her or like um but doesn't have that framework I don't know yeah I can see

[00:46:32] that well it's sort of implied that like she's the first Barbie um I mean I guess because she is but

[00:46:40] like uh but we don't necessarily like see that with Ken I feel like we should acknowledge that like

[00:46:51] in the Barbie movie we have a lot to say about Ken which like so misogynist of us honestly yeah um

[00:47:02] I think um that is because there's a lot of as we said a lot of interesting gender stuff

[00:47:10] happening with Ken and also um I don't know that like we're particularly interested in getting into the

[00:47:22] like um I think a lot of the the gender stuff that is happening with Barbie is um wrapped up in

[00:47:38] uh I mean the experience of women under patriarchy and also wrapped up in feminism in a way that feels

[00:47:49] um less about queerness and I don't want to say that it's not interesting but it's just like not

[00:48:04] maybe not like not as transgressive I don't know if that's the right word either yeah but I do

[00:48:10] yeah yeah I think like a lot of the discourse around the Barbie movie has been like about

[00:48:17] this tension which is that like a lot of people saw the Barbie movie a lot of men

[00:48:24] primarily and also tradwives um saw the movie and they were like oh my god Barbie hates men

[00:48:30] Barbie is like a leftist fascist feminism whatever um like what was happening the movie was

[00:48:38] like enough to make a lot of people upset and also for people like us I was like did

[00:48:43] is anything new here like about the womanhood and I think like two things feel very true

[00:48:51] one is that it does present you know feminism 99 not even one one one maybe um

[00:49:01] and it is doing more than pretty much any other like blockbuster movie is doing maybe in that

[00:49:11] environment regard um and like also it is ultimately the end of the day an advertisement sponsored by

[00:49:21] Mattel for a doll which like doesn't mean that it's not interesting or entertaining

[00:49:28] it also doesn't mean that we can't have higher standards for film yeah and also like it feels

[00:49:34] relevant that like I don't know up inheimer a film that I have not seen um like nobody is like

[00:49:41] but is obhanheimer feminist enough like no one's asking that yeah um so I don't know that

[00:49:49] that's not like a discourse that i'm really having any interest in like coming down

[00:49:52] hard on in any which way but like that does I think that's part of why we are more drawn to talking

[00:49:58] about Ken yes um because there's like more things to do with Ken that feel like new or uh

[00:50:05] that we can like read honestly with or against the text yeah um in like interesting gender ways

[00:50:11] that we don't see as often um the feminism of barbie is meaningful to some people

[00:50:19] particularly cis white women such as myself but which like doesn't mean that it's worthless

[00:50:28] and also doesn't mean that it's um I don't know we just don't break it yeah we don't have a

[00:50:35] ton to say about it i guess yeah um it makes me think also of the way that like

[00:50:44] um things can get um flattened in like I think about um when marvel was like captain

[00:50:57] america is black now and people are like y'all marvel is woke now and it's like y'all marvel

[00:51:05] is entrenched in like the military industrial complex these are basically cop movies nothing

[00:51:13] nothing woke about marvel no um same with the little mermaid i'm like this is a disney movie

[00:51:20] what are you talking about yeah and so like the um which is not just and if you are someone that likes

[00:51:33] superhero movies to have a major superhero character not be a white guy is not insignificant

[00:51:42] yeah and i think representation like does really matter yeah it is not maybe the end all be all

[00:51:49] of course um but like there is a trans actress playing a barbie there's a barbies of all

[00:51:55] different body shapes yeah uh races and the cities is barbie in a wheelchair um and like again

[00:52:03] that doesn't make barbie like i don't know the groundbreaking text regeneration yeah but it is

[00:52:09] i mean it's something yeah like progress is valuable and also having a fat barbie doesn't erase

[00:52:18] it doesn't undo the fascism yeah yeah um and i think like both are true which is that like we should

[00:52:27] expect more we can't expect more and also it is it's meaningful to see yeah um holding that

[00:52:36] complexity is actually much more interesting and meaningful than just being like

[00:52:42] like this is a feminist film or like yeah yeah or being like barbie is actually a tool of the

[00:52:52] patriarchy or barbie hates man are like it's none of those things yeah um that's our hot take

[00:53:00] hold complexity hold complexity try it complicate your argument yeah um and that's make me think about

[00:53:09] america for errors infamous speech um her monologue um which she delivers very well like

[00:53:16] shout it to the actress she is so good this is an america for a stand podcast um she

[00:53:25] we watched it a second time together this week to prepare for this episode the first time

[00:53:28] we saw it in theaters i remember feeling more moved um by that speech which she is probably

[00:53:37] her for performance of it yes and upon a second rewatch i was like oh this is about america for error

[00:53:43] it's like not about the text she's just like doing a lot with what she's been given and if you

[00:53:48] haven't seen the movie the monologue is basically just like talking about the like tensions of being a

[00:53:53] woman um like she's like you have to be smart but not too smart and whatever um it's very like

[00:53:59] on the nose yeah um and i think for some people that may be one of the earliest times or the first

[00:54:10] times that they are like seeing those things named i think for me with where i'm out in terms of

[00:54:16] like media consumption and expectations it would have been more meaningful to like see uh

[00:54:22] uh multiple women talk about their experiences um would have like offered some more

[00:54:30] depth some more like uh something a little bit more interesting and maybe like more applicable

[00:54:36] and more moving um it moves the barbies at deep programs um successfully um so it's a

[00:54:44] ultimately like it's a plot device um but that particular um monologue has really made the rounds

[00:54:53] in the the discourse yeah um and yeah i don't know i think like i said america for our delivers it

[00:55:00] so meaningfully but if you look at the words on the page i'm like this isn't doing that much

[00:55:06] yeah in a second watching i was like this was written so that people could post on their social media

[00:55:14] like quotes from this and be like it's so hard to be a woman

[00:55:23] and i'm like i don't know why we could have done without that i feel like the movie is making this

[00:55:29] argument to the extent that it is like needs to be made like i feel like the movie is doing lots of

[00:55:36] things and it didn't there didn't need to be a speech about it but i also have to remember that like not

[00:55:41] everyone is me like unfortunately yeah well and like there is a point in time when that would

[00:55:48] have been meaningful to me uh probably so i think i also have to remember like okay well this feeling um

[00:56:01] like you know intro to feminism um um we're feeling very like second wave

[00:56:09] like as you said for some people this might be their first like introduction to that concept

[00:56:16] and i have to remember like okay just because that's not where i am at doesn't mean that this isn't

[00:56:23] like valuable to someone i think i just also am like what is the line between sort of a particular

[00:56:31] kind of like pandering and like doing something for someone who's at a different place

[00:56:41] yeah it's not the same thing but feels connected to what i was talking about at the beginning of

[00:56:47] the episode about um like Barbie's dream house coming out in a time when like women couldn't have

[00:56:54] their own mortgages like that particular context really like drastically changes the way that

[00:56:59] i think about that product um and like this movie is coming out in a time where like a lot of

[00:57:08] women were like so i mean a lot of people in general but like a lot of cis women were like shocked

[00:57:14] by the overturning of roe v. Wade yeah um and are now suddenly like uh you know galvanized or

[00:57:23] activated in some way um and like abortion is an issue that does not only affect cis women

[00:57:28] lots of people of water genders are affected by reproductive health care access um and i think that

[00:57:35] like if you are somebody who has just become politically activated or politically engaged um because

[00:57:42] you are feeling threatened or feeling disenfranchised um this could be a movie that meets you

[00:57:50] somewhere yeah i think i'm like very wary of uh films that try to like do feminism with just

[00:57:58] one woman um which is kind of what is happening here because like the Barbies are Barbies

[00:58:04] um in america frere is like giving this monologue i think if i'm not for a daughter i guess that's

[00:58:09] like also meaningful but um i'm just always like the the solution is collectivism it's not like

[00:58:18] second wave individualism yeah um but you know you got to start somewhere like you said some people

[00:58:24] are gonna that's gonna meet some people where they are yeah yeah i was very moved by and i think

[00:58:32] this is like more about me than like about the text um but uh when Barbies like should i become a

[00:58:40] person um like what do i do um and is like talking about being a woman with um Ruth um Ruth says

[00:58:49] something like uh we i don't remember the context but i know what you're thinking of and i was like

[00:58:56] this was so mom's could post the son facebook i know and i was literally crying in the theater

[00:59:03] it was um mother stand still so that their daughters can see how far they've gone yeah how far

[00:59:11] yeah um and like is that a hundred percent true no um but does it make me emotional yeah

[00:59:22] i was like i think that hit for me in the theater and watching it a second time i was like

[00:59:25] it didn't hit for you i was crying and i looked over it and you were just like happily watching

[00:59:29] the movie yeah i was like this was for moms to post on facebook or for their daughters to post

[00:59:35] on facebook on mother's day on instagram or whatever i was like this is for the internet yeah um

[00:59:40] which like fair likely true and also like also feels relevant to Barbie dream house in the

[00:59:47] book context of like next yeah yeah i i'm glad it was meaningful to you thank you um and i have not

[00:59:55] posted about it on instagram to my knowledge my mom has not seen this movie and i did

[01:00:00] she's coming up it is um you can i actually tried to tell her about it she was like what i

[01:00:06] liked the barbie movie and i was like you would but there's like a line at the end that is

[01:00:10] gonna make you weep my mom cry like i cried everything you think she one time we watched cheaper by

[01:00:16] the dozen two and she wept like i had mascara all over my arm because she was crying i don't

[01:00:22] remember why but anyways children growing up yeah um and i was like trying to tell her

[01:00:29] sort of the line and then we like both started crying i didn't even like tell her what it was i'm

[01:00:33] just setting up the context so like i think that's more about us than about the text but um

[01:00:40] yeah so i suppose that is all to say i can empathize with somebody who might have that kind

[01:00:46] of experience of like feeling seen or recognized by america forera's monologue even if it is not

[01:00:53] the revolutionary speech that america forera is capable of giving it yeah um i really want to talk

[01:01:04] about alan we're over an hour okay well i just want to say that i love alan alan's feminist icon

[01:01:13] a non-binary icon um yeah there's a lot of things going on with alan there are although in some

[01:01:20] ways i feel like they're um text and maybe that's why we had more to say about Ken where it's sort

[01:01:28] of like there's like so much text for ken ken is all like kind of subtext in that like it's

[01:01:36] definitely on the page but it's not like at the surface whereas i feel like alan pretty straightforward

[01:01:42] yeah like yeah um and we got a couple listeners um i posted that we were gonna talk about barbie

[01:01:49] a couple of listeners share that um alan felt like non-binary representation um also significant

[01:01:56] that he like talks to and seems to be friends with and aligned with the barbies and like has nothing

[01:02:00] to do with the kens where he's like patriarchy does not serve me as someone who exists outside of your

[01:02:05] binary he does have a joke that i missed the first time we watched the movie about in alan

[01:02:12] alan's getting into the real world before and then he's like all the members of in sync

[01:02:17] even the one you're think yes him too um so funny you can tell that that line was written before

[01:02:27] the brinnie met marquay mo yes it was i don't think that alan's would want to be no

[01:02:31] alan's do not claim yeah mm-hmm yeah they would have put it to the back true boys

[01:02:37] um i also wanted to briefly mention the last joke of the movie is the bar i also want to talk about

[01:02:45] america fera and barbie's romance but we can do that i'm just not too much time talking i know

[01:02:52] literally so misogynist advice um just know the in my head canon um america fera's husband

[01:02:59] as a studio note and the original script is that america fera and barbie fall in love and get married

[01:03:08] yeah i mean i don't think that i think they're definitely in love yeah that's i'm not invested

[01:03:12] in whether or not they get married yeah they don't have to get married i guess i don't care um but

[01:03:19] i feel like they put the doolingo husband in there who literally only plays doolingo

[01:03:23] no other plot um although you do get to have a csa play they joke in which i was like

[01:03:29] that's good yeah i'm like fera so good um but there's been like a lot of discourse we also got some

[01:03:37] messages from people when i am solicited hot takes um the last scene in the movie barbie is in the

[01:03:44] human world and she's gonna go do something in america fera is like cheering her on and we find out

[01:03:49] that what she's doing is going to the gynecologist which within the world of the film is kind of funny

[01:03:57] because earlier in the movie she like tells a bunch of construction workers that she doesn't have

[01:04:03] yeah they're sort of they're leering at her and she's like i don't know what's happening here

[01:04:07] but i i don't have the things you're looking for yeah she's like i have no genitals

[01:04:12] yeah he has no genitals and then can't like i have all the genitals

[01:04:19] even though he like clearly doesn't really know he's like one yeah so like in the world of the movie

[01:04:25] i think there were funnier things that could have been said but it was i was like okay i get it

[01:04:29] but like in the context of like the rest of the world sort of like fell flat for a lot of folks because

[01:04:37] there are a lot of other ways to demonstrate that barbie is now a woman a lot of ways that like

[01:04:43] don't involve like gender essentialism um or transphobia or any of those things um yeah and i think

[01:04:51] that that's like a valid a valid point to make about the movie yeah we do have a friend who

[01:04:59] main critique about the movie is that can never apologize is um barbie apologizes for taking

[01:05:06] ken for granted and ken does not apologize and i both think that is valid and also it's like i mean

[01:05:13] i didn't expect ken to apologize he's not that self-actualized yet right i think like ken will go

[01:05:19] to therapy and then be like you know what doing patriarchy that was wrong yeah um he's not quite on the

[01:05:26] um josh chan arc no he is not um yeah but you know he could get there yeah that's like a barbie

[01:05:36] three yeah that's it's giving thirds he's in first he had to realize his own um that he

[01:05:42] exists as a person yeah which is tough that's a hard first step he was in a a one-sided

[01:05:48] co-dependent relationship which i don't find relatable at all it's never happened to me

[01:05:55] i've never done that i've never known um but it is i mean yeah he doesn't he does not apologize

[01:06:07] for bringing patriarchy to the garden of Eden oh you didn't get to talk about that it's okay um

[01:06:14] i just really enjoyed looking up like all of the the things that credit girl wig was like

[01:06:18] applying to the film yeah in the writing and directing because uh it just like such an out of

[01:06:24] the box movie in some ways that i like like to see what people are thinking and

[01:06:28] check out a girl wig uh barbie land is the garden of Eden which is funny yeah um yeah it's a fun

[01:06:36] movie i really enjoyed it it is it's very funny yeah um and sometimes that's enough you know yeah

[01:06:46] um if you have any other hot takes about the barbie movie please feel free to write in

[01:06:50] we have now significantly gone over time yes i'm sorry that we couldn't get to everything

[01:06:56] apparently we had a lot to say about barbie yeah we always have a lot to say the listeners don't

[01:07:03] know anything about that they love our um concise and short episodes yeah i mean

[01:07:10] who would have thought that two people with a background in media analysis would have a lot of

[01:07:14] things to say and you have a degree from the premiere film institute uh in the nation right

[01:07:20] i do yes you do which i was like i'm sort of glad i wasn't in school with this movie came out can

[01:07:26] you imagine me i have a masters in american studies for those who don't know i would have been

[01:07:32] booming at the mouth writing at the east of celsius well and especially because barbie and

[01:07:35] opinheimer came out at the same time it would have been a fucking nightmare i would have like had to

[01:07:40] watch opinheimer which would have been unfortunate for me as someone who has no interest mostly because

[01:07:45] it's three hours long yeah yeah so well there you have it folks that's barbie yeah um

[01:07:55] i want to be like bi-barbie but that's like not really in the movie so we'll just do what we usually do

[01:07:59] okay well goodbye

[01:08:10] thanks for listening to this episode the bipod is made possible by our patrons you can find us

[01:08:14] on instagram at the bipod and on our website the bipod.com this show is produced and edited

[01:08:22] by me and our theme song is coming home by snowflake