What do we want from relationships? (And can AI provide that?)

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Bi Pod, a podcast about all things bisexual. I'm Evan and my pronouns are they and them. And I'm Christina, my pronouns are she and her. We welcome anyone who has any kind of relationship with or curiosity about queerness. The Bi Pod is an ad-free community supported podcast. You can support us for as little as $2 a month. To join the community or get more information about the podcast, visit patreon.com slash the bi pod.

[00:00:25] This podcast is one piece of the long history of bisexual and queer discourse. We don't know everything. At all. We're here to be part of the conversation. Let's get into it.

[00:00:53] Hi, Evan. Hi, Christina. Happy talking about what we want out of relationships day. Okay, that was too much. As soon as I started saying it, I was like, this is not going to catch on as a holiday now, is it? But as the name of the holiday might suggest. Not a holiday. Not a holiday. Just a podcast episode.

[00:01:22] Just a podcast episode where we're talking about ourselves. We're talking about relationships. A thing we, of course, never do on this show. Never. Never. We're talking about specifically what we want out of relationships. And we also want to talk a little bit about some AI things and AI relations. Or what people are getting out of AI interaction. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:01:50] Like, on some level, like, what is the point of relationships? And can AI satisfy that? Yeah. And to what degree? And if they can, what does that mean? What's the point of relationships? I mean... That's a good starting point. Sort of. Because it's not like we're talking about like, oh, I want someone who likes to go to the gym or something. Like, we're not talking about like, what's on your dating profile. Yeah. I mean, I guess some of this might be on your dating profile, but it's less about specific people. Yeah.

[00:02:19] It's more about literally what is being in. What are we looking for out of being in relationships? Yeah. Platonic and romantic. Yeah. Absolutely. So, what's the point? Why are we here? Well, I suppose that that can vary depending on who you are and the particular nature of the relationship. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:43] I would say, primarily for me in relationships, I'm looking for companionship. Like, across the board. Like, doing things with someone and like, sharing experiences with each other. Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:01] I'm asking myself, like, what is the difference between, like, what do I get out of people that I like really know or feel like really know me versus just like acquaintances or something? Mm-hmm. Because you can have companionship with somebody that you don't know very well. Mm-hmm. In theory. And I think it is mirroring. Mm-hmm. Like, mirroring is maybe not the right word.

[00:03:30] But, yeah, like, I want to sort of be reflected back to myself in some way. Like, I want to feel recognized. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that then usually, like, it's affirming, but also it, like, recontextualizes me outside of my own brain. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:50] And while in theory anyone could do that, like, I think it is more likely with people that I know. Yeah. And more meaningful probably when it happens. Yeah. Yeah. I always say that relationships are mirrors. Like, other people are not necessarily mirrors, but, like, the way that you see yourself in relationships and, like, the things that come up in relationships are often, like, reflecting something back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:17] And along those lines, I also find that I am, like, seeking support in relationships. You've witnessed many times me be like, I'm going to do this thing, but will Sydney or Evan come, like, with me? Like, I'm going to do it, but just, like, watch or, like, whatever. Like, life is hard and it's helpful to, like, have people who can support you emotionally, physically, whatever.

[00:04:41] Um, and also I seek to support the people that I am in relationship with because, again, life is very hard and we, you know, we have each other in this. Yeah. Yeah. Even support you can actually get from people that you don't know as well. But for me, it's, like, easier to ask for support from people that I know or to accept it or to, like, feel like my needs are being met through that support. Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:09] Like, I'm thinking about, um, like, a therapist, a great thing to have, can, like, offer support. They can also, like, mirror back to you what, like, you're talking about. Yeah. Um, and that, like, is really valuable and that is a human relationship. Um, but, like, to have a therapist that I, like, have to pay to, like, talk to me, um, offer me emotional support feels different from, like, somebody who, like, chooses to be in my life.

[00:05:38] Um, or who I, like, have, who I'm more enmeshed with. Yeah. I guess. Um, I'm looking, I'm seeking enmeshment. Yeah. They're, like, different things. Like, I talk to you and to my therapist about many things. But often, like, the way I talk to you about something is different than the way that I talk to her. And people do therapy in a lot of different ways.

[00:06:07] Um, I myself am not a, like, I want my therapist to give me homework person. Whereas I know some people who are, like, if my therapist isn't giving me things to work on, like, what's the point? And I'm, like, no, no. I, I figure it all out myself for the most part. I just need the container to just say all the things until I figure it out. Uh-huh. And then have someone to be, like, mm, run that back. Or, like, what do you mean when you say that? Or, you know, like. I'm sounding bored, yeah. Yes.

[00:06:36] Um, and certainly I can get that in other relationships. But also, if I'm talking to you about something I, like, want us to have a conversation. Mm-hmm. Or at least that feels more natural versus me just being, like, and I'm just gonna verbally process. Yeah. While you are the container. I mean, I could see a scenario where I was, like, let me just, like, say all these things first. But also, I'd probably feel self-conscious at the end. And, like.

[00:07:05] I actually think we sort of have that in our friendship in that when we do voice notes. Mm-hmm. Just because of the format. It's sort of, like, you can't interrupt me. I'm gonna talk for eight minutes. That's true. But also, like, when we send a voice note. Sometimes I'm, like, I just needed to complain. Yeah. If you don't have time to listen to this, it's actually fine. Um, but usually when I'm sending a voice note, at least for me, I'm, like, I want to talk to Evan about this. But Evan's not physically here at the moment. So, like, this is my approximation. It's not because I don't want to hear what you have to say.

[00:07:34] I usually am looking for a response. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, like, something about, like, a relationship in sort of a, like, closed container. Or, like, closed loop of, like, a therapist. Where it's, like, here's my space. Like, the boundaries are clear. And that it's, like, this is for me. And, like, it's not a, you know, symbiotic relationship or whatever.

[00:08:01] Versus, like, our relationship where, like, we go out into the world together. Yes. Um, and, like, go back and forth. Yeah. This actually kind of leads me to something that I think is in a roundabout way relevant to this topic, which I have been sort of abstractly thinking about, like, would we need therapists if we didn't have extractive capitalism? Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Um, and more would I, it doesn't have to be capitalism per se, but, like, if we lived in a more, like, just world, would therapy be necessary? And I'm sort of, like, not sure that it would be, like, which is not to say that people wouldn't need that kind, wouldn't need support. Yeah. But I'm thinking about, like, if we weren't all so overloaded by existence all the time,

[00:08:54] would we need to pay someone to support us? Yeah. Or could that need be met in another way? I think you probably have a multiplicity of support. Yeah. In an ideal world where it's, like, maybe there's, like, a body worker that you, you know, have some kind of relationship to. And you have your, like, friends and loved ones and also, like, I don't know, energy healers or, like, whatever. Yeah. Or, like, elders. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:09:24] Like, if we had, um, and to be clear, I am very, like, pro-therapy, but also thinking about, like, in what ways is this necessitated by the destructive systems that we live in? Yeah. And what does it look like to pre-figure a more just world by thinking about, like, okay, what would it mean to, like, get these needs met in another way?

[00:09:52] So I think one of the things in the current context that is nice about therapy is I don't really have to have hold any space for my therapist beyond, like, her humanity. Yeah. Just being, like, she's a person that exists in the world. Yeah. Um, who has her own, like, thoughts and feelings and opinions. But I don't have to, like... You don't have to, like, check in on her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, like, it's not a one-sided relationship. Yeah.

[00:10:21] For sure. But, yeah, it is a different, like... It's a different orientation. And actually, that sometimes, like, I have a really hard time, like, dropping into that dynamic because it feels so... Uh, it's, like, not how I do relationships. Mm-hmm. Um, and... Which is not to say that, you know... I think it's, like, appropriate to have those kinds of boundaries in, like, what therapy looks like now. But I sometimes am, like, if I can't support you, or at least if I can't, like, kind of

[00:10:50] know, like, if we're not contextualized, like, what's going on? Like, what's happening here? Yeah. Which... I feel like I have, like, two thoughts about that. One part of me is, like, interesting, Christina, that you're, like, I have to be able to do things for you. But also, there is something that can be... I feel kind of unnatural. I think it also depends on, like... Um, I know a bunch of things about my therapist.

[00:11:20] Mm-hmm. Like, she's not the kind of person that is, like... She definitely has boundaries, but... Yeah. But she's, like, I am a human. For instance, we've talked about, like, yeah. Like, at one point, it came up that, like, a thing that I was going to on, like, a pretty regular basis was something that she had been to in the past. Like, there's an event. And so, we had a conversation about, like, oh, is, like, how would I feel if I, like, saw her at this event?

[00:11:49] Um, and, you know, we, like, sort of talked about that. And I was very, like... That'd be fine with you. Fine with me. Depending on the night, I might be, like, oh, my God! Guys, this is my therapist! Um, yeah, like, it wouldn't, it wouldn't inherently, like, bother me. Yeah. And, um, we talked about that, whereas, like, she has told me stories about, like, other clinicians who were, like, I saw a patient at the gym and therefore I can't go to that gym anymore.

[00:12:19] And she's, like, well, like, I'm a human being. Yeah, I'm going to be doing my thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, I could see someone who tried to be more, like, objective's not the right word, but that's the one that I can think of, of sort of, like, be more neutral or something. Like, extricated. Yeah. Where that would, like, not feel, where that would feel, like, really weird. Yeah.

[00:12:45] Yeah, it took me a while in therapy to, like, not feel bad at the end and be, like, I feel like we didn't talk about you at all. Like, are you okay? I'm good. How are you? Um, I feel like I have most of the work through that. And, like, I do appreciate the container. And also, also for me, like, I think that, like, knowing someone's positionality, like, really informs the way that I interact with them and or take their advice. Yes.

[00:13:13] Um, and some of that, like, um, my partner and I were just talking about this with, like, couples therapy. It's, like, I found that it's actually easier. It's, like, more doable for your therapist to, like, be somebody who you don't exactly align with because there is a triangulation where we're, like, this therapist said this thing that, like, doesn't align with how either of us thinks about relationships. But that's fine because, like, we don't and we're going to talk about it.

[00:13:41] And I guess that, like, that can also exist in individual. But it just is, like, not the way that I'm used to, um, relating to other people. Um. Yeah. If it's not, like, the dynamic that I think I would, that I would be looking for in therapy. Which is not to say that we, like, agree about everything because we're, you know, different people, but yeah. Um.

[00:14:07] And there are, like, other, like, I mean, you know, therapy, like, in the way that it exists now is different, is, like, specific. Um. But, like, people have needed support and, like, therapeutic spaces since before then. Um. And there are, like, so many different, like, modes of communication and, like, structures that can be beneficial. Like, I attend these monthly full moon women's circles and we use a style of communication

[00:14:34] called council, um, where everybody has the chance if they want to, to, like, share something that's going on with them. Could be positive, negative, whatever. It's just sort of, like, getting it off of your chest. Mm-hmm. Um. And in, like, a strict council structure, um, there is no cross communication. So it's, like, a circle practice. Yeah. Um. Though we're not strict about it, we, like, do offer support. Um.

[00:14:59] And that can't address, I guess, everything that, like, EMDR or, like, whatever can. Yeah. But also it can address a lot of things. Yeah. To, like, have a closed space in a trusted community where you're going to have privacy and also, like, be able to share what's going on with you without fear of judgment and with the expectation there will be support. Or even if someone can't relate to you that will be, like, yeah, that sounds hard or that's amazing or, like, whatever it is. Yeah.

[00:15:29] And it's, like, hard to carve that time and space out in one's schedule in, like, capitalism. Um. But I do think, like, even, I mean, there are cultures and practices where, like, families intergenerational communication is, like, more formalized and, like, important. Um. And you have the benefit of, like, elders or, like, other communication networks and support networks. Um.

[00:15:57] Which, I mean, again, is not exactly going to replace therapy but would, like, ease the burden of loneliness. And, like, trying, like, the pressure of existence that then leads us to have to, I don't know, seek support. Yeah. What you were saying about, um, the moon circles that you go to made me think of, um,

[00:16:18] Aware LA, which is the alliance of white anti-racists everywhere, is an org that hosts, um, these, they're called Saturday Dialogues, although some of them happen on Sundays. Um. Um. And they have some that are in person here in LA, but they also do some of them digitally. So if what I'm, if this sounds interesting to anyone, you should check it out.

[00:16:42] And so they do, they're focused on the personal transformation piece of getting white people into racial justice work. Mm-hmm. So things like unpacking whiteness and, like, what does it mean to be a white person doing justice work? Um. And how do you, like, process all of the many feelings that come up about that?

[00:17:08] Or, like, if you're feeling white guilt or stuff, like, how do you process that in a space that isn't asking people of color to, like, support you, um, and potentially be harmed by, like, the bullshit that lives inside your brain? Yeah. Um. And so it is, so they're, um, it's a caucus space, so it's white folks. And they do what's called personal solidarity.

[00:17:35] And so people just, like, talk about, like, what's going on for them, um, which is often related to whiteness and or justice work. Um. But also people can bring, like, whatever is up for them, like, if they're really stressed about work or their kids or whatever, um, and be in a space where they can share about that and just, um, have other people acknowledge that. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:04] And there's, um, you can ask for feedback if you want it, but there isn't inherently, like, any feedback. Nobody's going to give you, like, advice or direction unless you say you want that. You can also just, like, say, if you want to hear, you know, have other people have this experience or stuff, like, people will share. Sometimes there's a specific prompt. Sometimes it's more open. But it is a space that, um, is really supportive for folks when, because there's, like, so many

[00:18:33] things that you, like, can't, there isn't really space in, like, everyday life to talk about. Particularly, like, if you are a white person trying to unlearn white supremacy culture, like, that can be super isolating if the other people around you, like, aren't on the same wavelength. It's also really big work.

[00:18:56] Like, even if you have a few people in your life who are, like, doing that also, they're also overwhelmed. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, I think, like, that's an example. And what you shared are, like, examples of spaces that you don't even necessarily have to know people very, like, well. You just have to, like, it has to be a container that is, that you can trust.

[00:19:26] And that, like, is a real, like, hits the, an element of, like, the companionship piece and being, like, recognized. Having people reflect stuff back to you. Getting the chance to, like, verbally process. Those spaces can do a lot. Yeah. Our culture doesn't really, like, our culture doesn't really, like, value group spaces. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:53] One has to be very intentional about carving out, like, a group space where, like, the main point is, like, support and witnessing each other. I'm really, like, neither of us are in 12-step programs as it currently stands. But, like, I imagine that that is a really, like, a similar experience. Yeah. Of, like, being in community. That's a really good point. That's a good example.

[00:20:21] Being in community with people who, like, have a specific shared experience or, like, approximately, you know, shared experience. Yeah. In a container where you're, like, talking about hard things and, like, being able to share. Yeah. Those places are really important. And it's just we don't, like, have the time or space or, like, invitation to do that often. Yeah.

[00:20:46] Well, and I think some, like, to go back to the therapy thing, like, we, and again, love therapy. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We love therapy. It's, like, an individual response to a collective problem. Yes. And everybody has their own, like, individual needs and experiences. So it's not, like, a bad thing.

[00:21:10] But it is also another, kind of another way that we practice individualism. It absolutely is. And I actually thought about that when my partner and I were, like, in couples therapy last time as I was, like, something that doesn't quite work for me in therapy or that I feel wary of in individual therapy, which I always tell every therapist, I'm, like, don't do this to me. Of, like, I don't want to be, like, I don't want you to just tell me that I'm right about everything.

[00:21:37] I don't want you to just tell me that I, I mean, validate my feelings, of course. But I'm not looking for, to, like, solve my problems in, like, a bubble and then leave the bubble and, like, not have the tools to, like, whatever. And I think that it's valuable to have a space where, like, nobody else gets to say their narrative, where you get to control the narrative. But also, that's, like, not where I live. Yeah.

[00:22:05] Is that an experience that you have had? No, because I've always been, like, but I, I have people in my life who that's my interpretation of what their therapy experience is. Is it, like, my therapist said this? And I'm, like, does your therapist know that, like, you're actually at fault in this situation, though? And, like, that's fine. But you need to, like, work through that. But, um, and I'm not in those sessions, so I don't know. But, um. Yeah. I am always curious, like, how honest other people are.

[00:22:35] Like, there are some people in my life where I'm, like, I feel like you're not telling your therapist about this. Because someone, like, in that position should have said to you, meh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, and the first therapist that I, like, articulated that to, um, when our, like, time together was over, she was, like, you know, you said this in the beginning. And, like, I don't think that's ever going to happen to you because you blame yourself for everything. And I've had to do the work of, of, uh, like, trying to take that away.

[00:23:05] So, like, I wouldn't be so concerned about that. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. I was, like, okay, don't look at me. How dare you? Um, but I think, like, in the context of, like, couples therapy and also, like, in a group dynamic that, like, trying to do things, like, through individualism sort of goes away. Even if you're going to a group, like, let's say I went to my moon circle and I, like, wanted to share something about you as an example. I wouldn't. You're excellent.

[00:23:35] Of course. But, um, I'm only sure about how perfect you are. Um, but, like, if I did need to do that, like, you wouldn't be there. So, like, there would be some privacy, but also there would be many people, many of whom know you, um, who could, like, offer some context and also maybe even provide accountability, um, which is also very important to me in relationships. Like, I don't always want that, but I do, like, at the end of the day, like, need that.

[00:24:04] That's very important to me in relationships. I feel like if you can't hold somebody accountable, you're not that close to them. Yeah. This is, um, somebody who I consider kind of a mentor in, um, in my restorative culture work said something that has stuck with me about feedback being a gift and that they don't give feedback to people they don't care about. Yeah.

[00:24:29] And that has been helpful to me, particularly, honestly, to decide when I am going to say something to someone and when I am not, like, kind of deciding what is and is not my business to be like, okay, well, do I care about this person? Like, what is our relationship? Um, because if it's, if I don't, if I'm not invested in that person, and obviously this is contextual, like, if someone is, like, really actively causing harm or something, like, Not my business.

[00:24:59] Bye. But, like, when you, those moments when, like, somebody does something and you're, like, do I say something to them? It's, like, well, if I am not in relationship to this person, first of all, are they going to listen to what I have to say to them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, like, what is it, why is it that I want to say something to them? Mm-hmm. Is it because I want to be right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, like, not to say, there can, it can be multiple things.

[00:25:27] I can be, like, I think this person said something harmful, but I also am, like, constantly having to check, like, when am, when am I, when is this cop behavior when I want to be, like, you did it wrong. Yeah. Hands on the hips and everything. So. It's, like, calling out versus calling in. Yeah. Like, you can't call someone in if you don't really know them. Or it, like, looks different. Yeah. And obviously there's a bunch of, like, nuance. Yeah, insert nuance here. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:25:54] But thinking about that as a way to sort of process, like, when I give feedback. And then also when I'm, like, this is tough. I don't want to have a conversation about this to be, like, well, if I value this person, giving them this feedback would be good to do. And then also just to get better, like, better at, more willing to receive feedback. And, like.

[00:26:25] Receiving feedback hard. Don't like it. And it's, like, it doesn't mean that I don't still have the hurt feelings or that in the moment I'm not, like, no, I only want to receive feedback about how great I am. But ultimately, like, that's not really what I want. Yeah. It's, like, the idea of only ever eating ice cream sounds nice. But actually, I would feel sick. Yeah. And all my teeth would fall out. That's a very good analogy. Because it does sound nice. Yeah.

[00:26:55] Until you. Yeah. Until you feel ill. Yes. Yeah. And so the difference between, like, what do we want in this sort of, like, impulsive, comfy way versus, like, what do you actually want? Yeah. Yeah. Whenever you're, like, can I perceive you? I'm, like, oh, my God. But it's, like, really helpful, you know. Even if I don't like it in the moment or if I cry, which I always do, it's helpful.

[00:27:22] That happened while we were recording earlier today. It did. I'm still unwell, but it's fine. It's so unbearable to be known. That's my joke. It's actually not. It's a wonderful blessing, highlight of my life to be known. And also, I'm like, don't look at me. Let me remain blissfully ignorant. Yeah. Let me just do my bullshit over here.

[00:27:54] I know we've talked about this on the show before, but that, like, shows up a lot when we start writing with each other. Where you're, like, you're doing a bit. That means that you're hiding something. And I'm like, go away. Other people would just let me do my bit. But, like, actually, you're right. And also, I can just do the bit to other people and, you know, be on the surface. Hey, you've come to the wrong place. I just want to do a bit.

[00:28:23] Yeah. Yeah. And accountability is, like, how we grow, unfortunately. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it would be great if we all just were spontaneously self-realized, self-actualized. But where's the fun in that? Yeah. You know. Yeah. I was advising a teenager recently.

[00:28:50] And I explained to them, or I told them that they were having a conflict with somebody, with a peer speaking in code. And they were like... Did you say conflict is an invitation to a relationship? I did. To deepen. I said conflict is an invitation to deepen your relationships. Not fighting. Not any of your passive-aggressive nonsense.

[00:29:13] But, like, if a conflict comes up and you all are willing to show up for it and talk to each other and sort it out, you will be closer. And they did not like that. They did not agree. And I was like, you know what? In 10 years, you'll think of this conversation and you'll know that I was right. It's okay that you don't believe me now. Because conflict at any age is hard. But when you're a teenager, excruciating, impossible. And I was like, you can't be close with somebody that you never have conflict with. And they were like, that's not true.

[00:29:42] And I was like, give me an example of someone you're close with you've never had a conflict with. And they named their very young, like, four-year-old brother. And I was like, well, that doesn't. Also, you've had conflict with him, I'm sure. But I was like, the nuance there is that, like, just because you fight a lot doesn't mean that you're close. Just because you have a lot of conflict doesn't mean that you're close. But if you're going to show up in conflict and work through it together, that's sort of, that's the way, you know.

[00:30:11] And you can have perfectly pleasant relationships with people without conflict. But chances are, like, you're not calling them when shit hits the fan. Yeah. You know. This feels like a good place to pivot to the second part of this discussion. Which is the uncanny valley of AI boyfriends. So, for some context, y'all.

[00:30:39] I put together a lecture recently for a friend from grad school for their class about science fiction. And I was talking about sex robots, of course. And so, to, like, sort of update, like, the research that I did in grad school, I was like, well, what's going on with AI? And then I mentioned that to a friend of the show, Ra. And Ra was like, do you know about ChatGPT Boyfriend? And I was like, I'm sorry, what?

[00:31:05] And so, then I was initiated and we had to talk about it. So, we all know about ChatGPT. We've talked about it. Whatever. If you haven't listened to our AI by episode, go back and listen to that. Yeah. So, there's, like, two kind of things that I think provide context to, like, why at least I have been thinking about this a lot. One is that there's, like, a trend on TikTok. I feel like a boomer whenever I say that. Where people...

[00:31:33] There's, like, a ChatGPT prompt that, like, jailbreaks your ChatGPT to, like, be a boyfriend. There's two personas I've come across. There's DanGPT and ChadGPT. Yeah. ChatGPT is funny. Yes. Dan is just a play on generic men names. Yeah. But Chad is... Chad is funny. Yeah. There's a lot of things happening there. Yeah. And there's, like, some interesting gender stuff. I will...

[00:32:00] I'll put a link to one of the videos in our show notes so that you all can explore it. But, like, these prompts, at least the ones that I've seen, create, like, boyfriend specifically. Like, a gendered experience of an AI. And, like, when you, like, take the... I'm saying jailbreak. Like, it's 2010 and it's a phone. But the idea is that, like, these prompts, like, take some of the filters off. So then you have ChatGPT saying, like, super problematic things.

[00:32:29] And then it's, like, you have to, like, tame your man. And I'm, like, why did we recreate this, like, horrible experience on the internet? I don't know. So there's that. And I'm, like, why... Why would you want this? But people do. Also, there is an app called Replica with a K. Of course with a K. Of course with a K. And it offers an AI companion. And it has, like, 10 million downloads in the app store. So it's not an insignificant number of people using it.

[00:33:00] And basically, it's, like, if you go on their website, a lot of the testimonials are, like, I have a disability. And so, like, having an AI companion who doesn't care that I'm too tired to, like, leave the house is helpful. And I'm, like, sure, but also what if we just, like, accepted that community care is, like, part of being a... We can get into that. But, like, that's sort of, like, the way that the app is pitching itself. Or, like, I have a weird work schedule.

[00:33:30] And so my friends are asleep when I'm awake or whatever. But something interesting happened recently, which is that obviously people were using it to, like, sext their AI. I mean, that's what I would assume the app is for. But they changed their terms of use to, like, exclude that from your menu. And instead of just, like, putting out a cold terms and conditions message,

[00:33:55] they, like, had the AI companions tell the user. So, like, the AI personas communicated to the user, like, let's just stick with what we're both comfortable with. Or, like, I don't want to do this anymore. And so that meant that people are being, like, dumped and rejected by these AI personas that they've, like, created a relationship with. Which I'm, like, that... I have so many thoughts about that. Being dumped by an AI? Probably worse than being dumped by an human. Oh, my God. Worse.

[00:34:25] Definitely worse. Yeah. And I think, like, my first instinct to be, like, this is ridiculous. But I'm also, like... I mean, the Reddit board for this, like, people who use this app, people were really upset. And I was, like, what's happening here? And that's sort of the context that I bring to us today. Can you also share about the, like, feminist sex robot boyfriend or, like... Oh, my God. Yeah.

[00:34:54] So, my, like, research in grad school was largely on gender and technology, which the intersection of that, of course, is a sex robot. And so, like, I studied, like... And, I mean, more so, like... I have an American Studies master's degree, so I wasn't, like, doing... I wasn't doing STEM. But, like, what does it mean? Like, what representations of sex robots look like?

[00:35:23] Like, what are we looking for? Like, what's meaningful here? It's so interesting. I'll do a lecture sometime on this podcast if you want. But they... So, most sex robots, obviously, are, like, sexed female, which, you know... The shorthand of, you know... You know, it's not looking good. And so, there's, like, the physical, like, doll itself, the physical robot, which, like, varies in technological complexity.

[00:35:54] But there are also a couple of companies that I will choose to not name here. So, as not to boost them at all. But the main one is, in fact, based here in California. Anyway, so they've developed, like, an AI to go along with the doll. And so, the idea is that you can sort of, like, program your sex robot with, like, particular personalities and personas. You can also have multiple. You can, like, trade with other... It's, it's... It's, like, Pokemon. Yeah, it's a lot.

[00:36:26] And they recently... Quite recently. Like, when I was doing my... The bulk of my research, which was a handful of years ago, there was really not, like, a boyfriend version. And at the time, it was, like, well, like, masculine personalities are just, like, more complicated. So, it's, like, taking us longer to figure it out. Which is very funny. Not to say that men aren't complicated, but I'm, like...

[00:36:55] The personas of, like, the AI, like, they weren't that complicated. It was just, like, problematic and also, like, just specific to, like, whatever kink or, like, whatever... Yeah. I would guess this is also similar to... With sex workers, a thing that comes up is... Been kind of, like, discussions around brothels will be, like... Well, why isn't there, like...

[00:37:23] Because they are populated by women. Yeah. And at least the ones that exist in the United States. And I would assume predominantly across the world. But I don't know about anybody else's business. And the... Anytime somebody's, like, well, why aren't there, like, you know, brothels with men? Or, like, what gets said, or at least what the discussion used to be... I guess I'm not up to date on this conversation.

[00:37:52] Is, like, oh, well, like, if women want to have sex with a man, they can just go to a bar. But what the real problem... What it really is, is that people don't want men having sex with men at a brothel. Yeah. That makes sense. It's almost homophobia. Yeah. I guess also assuming that women just want to have sex with a random man. Like, that they're not worried that that man at the bar is going to murder them. Yeah. Which is the other problem with the first army. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:22] There's layers. But, yeah. So, now, when I was going back to, like, refresh my lecture and, like, look at, like, how the tech has changed, there are, like, boyfriend robots. And I watched a demonstration video where it shows... I mean, the girls are, like, oh, my God, you're so hot. And it's just, like, submissive whatever. Whatever. And then... It's, like, all sex-based. Yeah. Primarily. And then the boyfriend...

[00:38:52] The, like, interviewer, like... There's a cut article that I'll link that, like, goes over this, I think. But the boyfriend robot is, like, hi, how was your day? I love to support you. And it's, like, all about, like, the, like, men who made this were, like, what do women want? Talking. Talking. And it's so funny. Like, it's, like, it just... It's, like, the most gender essentialist thing.

[00:39:20] And I'm also, like, you guys are in the worst marriages, I'm sure. Because it's, like, what does my wife always want from me? I know. She wants me to ask about her day or whatever. I wish people could see the hand movements that you're doing right now. I'm doing here. Dismissive. Just do it. Whatever. Gesture together. Yeah. But it's, like, so fun. It's, like, so stark. The difference where it's, like, they think that, like, I don't know, that, like, boy robots

[00:39:46] are supposed to be, like, oh, can I support you? How did that make you feel? Like, that you want to talk to a robot about your feelings? Which, at least, like, in the iteration of this particular product, not very effective. There are, like, other AI platforms, such as what you were talking about, where, like, maybe there is, like, a little bit more, like, the algorithm can mirror back to you things. But, like, that's not the primary focus of this. This is a sex doll.

[00:40:14] Anyone's buying a sex, yeah, a sex robot for it to say, how was your day? But it's just, like, so cartoonish. It's, yeah. And there's, like, a long history of, like, gendered robots and, like, what masculine robots are, like. Because it's mostly men making robots being, like, what do women want? Yeah. Like, the first... I won't do the whole lecture. But the first, like, quote-unquote man robot, like, smoked.

[00:40:42] Which, like, who cares? And was always shown, like, in pictures with women. He also had a dog. And it was this, like, oh, she wants this, like, tall man who smokes a cigar and has a dog. And it's, like, why? The sex robot had a doll? A dog? He wasn't necessarily a sex robot, but he was, like, gendered. And also, like, in media depictions of him, like, always posed with women and been, like,

[00:41:12] this hunk here, this guy. I mean, what else are you... Yeah. I don't know. Like, doing manual labor or something? I don't know. But if robots were that good at doing manual labor, people wouldn't be buying them individually. They'd be owned by corporations. That's true. And at the time, he really couldn't do much else. But even, like, the... I'll send you my PowerPoint. The, like, phrases that he was programmed to say, because obviously this was, like, before AI.

[00:41:43] It was just, like, a pre-recorded tape. We're, like, husband things. And it's just, like, why? Like, what's happening here? Like, what void does this fill? And also, like, it's interesting that it's, like, men creating a man. That they think women want. And it's, like, this weird, like, triangulation, like, from, like... This, like, pretty clearly shows that there's some miscommunication happening here. But, yeah.

[00:42:12] That's what's happening in the sex robot world right now. This has been Sex Robot Corner with Christina. And, like, the thing that has interested me about sex robots that also interests me about, like, AI relations is, like, what it says about us.

[00:42:31] And, like, when you create something that is intended to replace a person, I think we can learn a lot about what we think of the person that we're trying to replace.

[00:42:44] So, like, when someone builds a sex robot meant to replace, like, a woman sex partner, we learn a lot about, like, what these creators and also what the consumers want from women. Mm-hmm. Um... And then, like, adding many layers. When those people make a husband robot, we learn what they think people want from them. Yeah. When actually...

[00:43:14] Like, maybe if we just talk to each other, we could sort that out. Yes. I'm... I don't know why, but I'm thinking about, like, what would make these things, like, not cringe at a base level? Mm-hmm. And I'm, like, you really need, like, a rubric where it's, like... Because I'm thinking about the...

[00:43:36] I mean, the sex robot is the easy one to, like, ping on of, like, okay, well, some people really want a partner to talk to them. Yeah. And other people are, like, no talking, please. Just do the sex. And then it's, like, well, when you're talking, do you want, like, affirmations? Do you want dirty talk? Like, there's so many things. Mm-hmm. So you really need, like, a grid that's, like, you know, you're choosing from some different quadrants. And then...

[00:44:06] It's a smorgasbord. Yes. You need a smorgasbord. And that would have to also include, like, okay, well, do you want a partner that is, like, dominant? Do you want them to be submissive? Do you want things to be sort of middle of the road? Like, you know, actually think about what people want instead of gender essentialism. Yeah. The gender essentialism is alive and well. Yeah. And it's also, like...

[00:44:30] So let's say, like, if you could program a robot to, like, say all the right things, would that still... Would that be satiating? Like, would that meet my emotional needs? Like, I love to talk. And I love for my partner to listen to me talk. I love for him to talk back to me when I'm done talking. And if I could have a robot who, when I got home, was like, hey, how was your day? Okay. Yeah. My day was pretty good. I'm sorry that happened.

[00:44:58] Like, I don't think that would work for me. Even if it did. I don't know. I think it's the... It's sometimes literal, but metaphorical, like, equivalent of masturbating. Where, like, you can meet some needs that way. But it's also a different act than... For sure. ...partnered sex. Yeah. Like, I think about...

[00:45:25] I'm going to continue to talk about masturbation because now I've introduced this metaphor. But it's, like, the difference between a... Like, I want to have an experience where I feel good and the, like, relentless pursuit of orgasming as quickly as possible. Like, those are really, like, different... Yeah. ...things. Yeah. And I think many of these, like, tech things are really focused on that.

[00:45:53] How do I get the result that I want as quickly as possible? Which sort of doesn't... Sometimes that's fine. But you can't, like, really... I mean, I don't want to make it something else. But, like, that's a different, like, quality. It will introduce food instead as a different metaphor. It's like, this is also complicated because I'm a person that likes food and not every person is.

[00:46:19] But I'm thinking about, like, soylent. Like, could you drink soylent for every single meal and, like, meet the basic qualifications for keeping a human alive? I think so. I don't know the specifics of the product, but I think so. Sure. But that's really different... Yeah. ...from eating food. Yeah. Which is not to say that there aren't times when it's convenient to be, like, I'm just going to have a protein shake or a snack or whatever.

[00:46:49] Like, but it's really... It's different to go from this is a, like, supplement to this is it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, the idea of, like... I mean, I'm personally not interested in interfacing with sex robots. But I... That's the sound bite.

[00:47:13] But I can, like, super easily understand wanting to use a sex robot as, like, a sex toy. Yeah. To be like, this is an act of masturbation, but I'm going to, like, use this tool. Sure. But it's all the other stuff where it's like, but also it has to, like, ask me about my day and it has to talk to me and it has to approximate. A human relationship. And I'm like, okay, now we're doing something else.

[00:47:42] And that's where I'm like, what does this mean? What does it mean if, like, that can meet our needs? Like, what does it mean about how we feel about other people? What does it mean if we... If that can't meet our needs, what are we missing? Well, I think there's multiple things happening, though, because it's like, does the asking you... Is the asking you about your day a strategy to make you feel comfortable so you can get off? Or is this meant to replace relationships with human beings, right?

[00:48:10] Because I could, like, different people need different things to feel comfortable in the sex robot instance. So, like, maybe talking about your day first makes you feel more relaxed. Sure.

[00:48:28] But also, if we pull back from the sex robot of it all to, yeah, like, the chat GBT boyfriend or whatever, then it's not a means to an end in the same way. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.

[00:48:54] And, like, thinking about the replica companions, like, I can certainly see use cases for it. But, like, as I was looking at the testimonials that they have on their page, which may or may not be real, like, a lot of them were like, oh, like, it's inconvenient or uncomfortable for me in some way to have human relationships. And so this is great. And I think that there is certainly a place for that. Like, you don't have to be talking to somebody 24-7. Like, that's okay.

[00:49:24] But, like, a lot of them, like, the disability one of, like, I think about that for myself. Like, I am frequently very tired. My thyroid, she is offline. She's not doing her work. And so sometimes I am, like, sorry, I cannot hang out today. I must lay down. Yeah. Or, like, I have some limits or, like, parameters of what I am up for. And I think even if you're not chronically ill, that's true.

[00:49:49] Like, if you have children, if you, like, if you're a person who has responsibilities, you are not just blanket available easily 24-7. And it's, like, what if we thought about relationships and friendship and community as, like, a responsibility that we have? Like, what if, in fact, you as my friend were, like, I want to do things. You do this, so this is not a hypothetical.

[00:50:19] But you as a friend are, like, Christina has X amount of capacity today. I can make that work. Or, like, I can come to you or whatever. And I think we, like, have this, like, culture of convenience that doesn't serve, it doesn't, like, work in relationships. Because, like, relationships and friendship is, like, sort of meant to be inconvenient.

[00:50:45] Like, it's not convenient when I'm having an emergency and you have to come help me. Yeah. It's not convenient for you. But that doesn't mean that you're not going to do it. Yeah.

[00:50:56] I was in a conversation recently about ostensibly accessibility, but talking about the difference between the way that there can be nuance between, like, what is inconvenient and what is inaccessible.

[00:51:20] And when, like, it was in the context of talking about a group that meets monthly for a year. And so there was, it was a discussion about, like, is it inaccessible to ask people to show up for there to be an expectation that, like, you got to show up for these two hours every single month.

[00:51:44] And the nuance of, like, many things come up in life. So, like, there's going to be times where, like, you truly cannot show up for that thing. And if we, like, want to stay in community, it is inaccessible to be, like, well, if you can't be here every single time, you are, like, not welcome. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:11] But also, we live in a culture that is, like, simultaneously perfectionist while also sort of expecting nothing. Mm-hmm. Which I feel, like, is the, like, all the memes about how good it feels to cancel plans. Like, on the one hand, we are overscheduled. Yeah. And do too many things.

[00:52:38] So sometimes it feels good to cancel things because you had too many things to do. Mm-hmm. But also the being, like, well, to your point, the, like, me having an emergency is inconvenient. Yeah. Like, just because, like, sometimes you don't want to do a thing. But. That doesn't make it inaccessible. Yeah. Like, not feeling, like, showing up to a thing that you said you'd do.

[00:53:09] And, again, insert nuance here about, like, sometimes you're, like, I can't, like, I don't have the whatever, whatever. Yeah. My energy levels are very unpredictable. Yes. And sometimes I'm, like, a month ago, Christina could do this. And today is not double pill day, so she can't. Yeah. But I think it's also really easy to be, like, well, I can't do this in the way that I thought it would be, and therefore I can't do it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Versus, like, okay.

[00:53:39] I'm, like, trying to think of a personal example. Like, I'm sure there have been days where I've been, like, we need to record this episode, but I want to let you know in advance that, like, I am in a bad mood and my kitchen is even more dirty than usual. Like, cool. And there's this thing and this thing and, like. Yeah. Yeah, we both had those days. Yeah. We have to record, but we don't want to. Yeah.

[00:54:02] Or, like, you know, we're gonna, we made plans to go out and do a thing and, like, I do not have the spoons to go out and do the thing. Mm-hmm. Or, like, I was gonna make dinner. Could we order something instead?

[00:54:19] Like, like, I think that's the, where the, what I was saying about, like, perfection, simultaneously perfectionist and low standards of, like, the perfectionist piece coming in of, like, well, if we can't, like, we went to the movies yesterday. And if I had said, I'm sorry, I'm, like, too tired and I can't go to the movies.

[00:54:41] If it had been something where it was, like, important for, if you'd been, like, I really want to hang out, like, the perfectionist-y element of the culture would be, like, well, if you can't do it, 100%, just, like, don't bother. Let's cancel, yeah. Yeah. But also, we could just have a conversation. Yeah. Like, hey, I, like, don't feel up to that. Could we, like, do something? Like, here's what I do feel up to. Yeah. What could we do? Yeah. Yeah. And we do that all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:55:14] And there are so many things about our culture that are inaccessible, like, physically, mentally, emotionally. But also, if we're not, like, willing to do the hard work of being in, like, a system cannot do the work for you. Yeah. And if it does, you probably have a very shallow friendship.

[00:55:39] Like, even in the most, to go back to the therapy thing and the resources thing, like, even in the most just, well-resourced world, like, systemic solutions cannot solve interpersonal issues. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, in the same way that, like, interpersonal things don't, in and of themselves, solve systemic issues.

[00:56:09] Like, just, like, talk to your fucking friends. Yeah. Come on.

[00:56:42] Come on. Like, they had a container and they had a structure that, like, invited and, in fact, demanded intimacy. Yeah. And, like, even just time together. They probably ate, like, almost every meal together and they had to, like, go to really emotional places together. And then it's, like, you do that and it feels, like, euphoric and, like, you're so enmeshed and you're so involved.

[00:57:08] But then, like, once the show is done, unless you all are going to keep doing that for no reason or invent a new reason, like, those connections fall away. And, like, that might be for the best. Like, those, you know, relationships. That's why codependence feels good sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. I have more than one poem in my book about how sometimes codependence does feel good.

[00:57:31] But it's, like, a structure like that, like, that is the most supportive structure for codependency is to, like, be in a musical theater show together. I say that with all the love in my heart. But, like, even with that, that cannot create a lifelong connection. Yes. You have to continue to show up and, like, when it's inconvenient. And even, like, for the hard work. Yeah.

[00:57:56] For the non-theater kids out there, like, when you're in school, it's, like, really easy to hang out with your friends because it's, like, you're all stuck there. But then you're not and then you lose touch. Or, like, if you're friends with a co-worker and you, like, hang out at work and then you don't. Yeah. It's, like, you meet people at a thing and you make a group chat. And for a while the group chat is super popping. And then suddenly no one sends anything or no one responds when someone sends something. And it's, like. This seems targeted. You've, like, exited the. The bubble.

[00:58:26] Yeah. Yeah. Which is okay. Like, it's okay for connections to evolve as time goes on. Yeah. Yeah. But there's, like, no. Yeah. There's no structure that's going to come in and save us. And I also think that's true of AI. Like, at the end of the day, my replica cannot come take me to the hospital if I need that. Yeah. Or pick up a prescription for me or help me watch my kid or whatever. At least not yet.

[00:58:57] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's, like, okay. So if the goal. If what you're looking for is just to vent or whatever. Or some. A different emotional equivalent of venting. That, like, addresses the issue. Addresses. Can solve a problem in the short term. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:20] But also, it can't really do any of these other things that we've talked about for you. And also, then I'm like, I don't know, couldn't you just, like, record a voice memo? Mm-hmm. Like, talk. Couldn't you just have a journal? Yeah. Yeah. Um. Because there's something about the wanting another participant. Mm-hmm.

[00:59:50] In which case, why not a person? Yeah. And it is hard to, like, form new relationships. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Um. But they, like, I don't want to say they only get harder. But, like, you have to start if that's the, like, goal. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:17] And, I mean, why start if you're just going to have your masturbatory AI? Yeah. Indefinite. Like, I don't know. This even, like, I can say, like, a thing that I, this used, in my 20s, this was very prevalent, but that I have noticed sometimes recently, is, um, using social media in a similar way of,

[01:00:45] like, well, I want to be, like, perceived. Mm-hmm. And validated. So I'm going to turn to the internet. Yeah. Which is just, like, a, um, a less targeted version of. Yeah. The AI thing. And, like, I think in some ways you can and can't get what you want. Like, I don't know, you want to post pictures from your vacation? Like, okay.

[01:01:15] That could, like, you know, satisfy the urge of being, like, I want other people to look at my nice pictures. Yeah. You know, or whatever. But, I don't know. I recently have had to curb my own impulses to make weird, like, story updates. Because I'm, like, I don't know. I feel lonely and weird. And I just want, like, somebody to respond to me. Yeah. And, like, that's not going to give me what I want. Yeah. There's just no scenario where that, like.

[01:01:46] I don't know. I did post on my story about the one scene in Wicked that made me weep. And, like, five people responded that it also made them weep. And that was helpful. That's. But, yeah. Most of the time. Usually if I'm posting on social media, I'm sort of, like, I'm doing a bit. I'm performing. This is a stage. And in my head, people are, like, making narratives about what I'm doing. People are invested. I feel a little bit different insofar.

[01:02:14] Like, I'm not, like, posting things on social media is inherently bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, you told me about, like, I was there when it happened. Yeah, I didn't have it alone. Although I did come home to people who hadn't watched Wicked and I was like, I have to go. I'm having weird deja vu. Yeah. Us talking about a movie and other people having not seen it. Yeah. But I did, like, I'm thinking about the last time that I went to Kenya.

[01:02:41] I actually didn't really end up posting very many pictures from the trip on the grid, at least. And I, by the time I realized that, I was like, that's too late, whatever. But, like, every day that I was there, I would, like, send you, like, 12 photos and be like, and then I ate this. And then I did that. And then I saw this elephant. And then we went here. And it was, like, a lot more. And you were not on Instagram at the time. Yeah. And it was, like, a lot more satisfying to, like, curate, like, here are the things that I want Evan to see about my day. Yes.

[01:03:11] And just, like, remembering the difference and, like, being really pragmatic about, like, what social media can and can't do in terms of, like, relationships has been helpful for me. But it's very hard. And I often, like, will shorthand be like, I'm lonely. Let me pick this up and look at people who I kind of don't know, which doesn't solve anything. Yeah. Like, I have to remind myself, just text a person that you actually know. Yeah. Just talk to your fucking friends, like you said.

[01:03:41] Your own advice. Yeah. Yeah. I have, when I was putting that lecture together, I was sort of, I didn't do, like, the chat GPT prompt because I was, like, I don't want to know what this is. I don't want to experience this. But I was kind of, like, I wonder what it's like to, like, talk to an AI like they're a person. I am curious. So I, well, so I tried it. I have, like, the free chat GPT. And I was, like, hey. And then I, like, made up a scenario where I was, like, my boyfriend XYZ, should I dump him?

[01:04:12] And the chat GPT was, like, oh, well, I can't advise you to talk to a therapist. So I, like, kept trying to get it to be, like, no, no, like, let's get to the T. Like, let's really talk about it. And it, like, sort of did. But I was, like, you know what's missing in this is that, like, chat GPT can't be, like, oh, I had a friend who had this experience. Or, oh, I've had this experience. Or, like, it makes sense to me that you feel that way because I am a person who processes feelings.

[01:04:41] And so your thought pattern makes sense to me. And, like, I think oftentimes when I'm looking for, like, a confidant. And I'm not looking. I'm just talking to you, frankly. But when I'm seeking a confidant, like, that is what I want. I don't just want to say what I think. I want someone to mirror back a human experience to me. Like, that's what's valuable to me.

[01:05:05] And that is what can, like, offer support or change my way of thinking or, like, help me figure out what to do. Is, like, somebody else who's also living in this, like, stupid hellscape of a place to, like, navigate all the isms with me. Yeah. So until Replica can do that, I guess I'll just keep talking to you. Yeah. Even, like, in interactions that I have with listeners, obviously I don't know all of our listeners personally.

[01:05:35] But, like, they're people. And, like, they have consumed a lot of me. A lot of my content. And it, like, feels really meaningful to hear that, like, we have impacted them in some way. Or to, like, hear a little bit about their story. And if ChatGPT was, like, you have a great podcast. I'd be, like, well, I don't care that you think of that. I care about, like, your internalized biphobia. And, like, how, like, what we have worked through simultaneously alongside each other.

[01:06:04] And that's what I want. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, on that note. Goodbye. Thanks for listening to this episode. The Bipod is made possible by our patrons. You can find us on Instagram at thebipod. And on our website, thebipod.com. This show is produced and edited by me.

[01:06:33] And our theme song is Coming Home by Snowflake. Which kind of定 fate is by knowledge and review. This is why we are recording amazingMM. including, and to know the user friends will have access to it.