Today we are revisiting our “Baking the Bisexual Happy Ending Cake” episode, which was originally released in the summer of 2021. Before we get into it, we reflect on the ways we’ve changed since recording the original episode, and the things that make us feel happy and hopeful for the future.
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[00:00:00] Welcome to The Bi Pod, a podcast about all things bisexual. I'm Evan and my pronouns are they and them.
[00:00:06] And I'm Christina, my pronouns are she and her.
[00:00:09] We welcome anyone who has any kind of relationship with or curiosity about queerness.
[00:00:14] The Bi Pod is an ad-free community-supported podcast. You can support us for as little as $2 a month.
[00:00:20] To join the community or get more information about the podcast, visit patreon.com slash the bi pod.
[00:00:25] This podcast is one piece of the long history of bisexual and queer discourse.
[00:00:30] We don't know everything. At all.
[00:00:33] We're here to be part of the conversation. Let's get into it.
[00:00:53] Hi, Christina. Hi, Evan.
[00:00:57] Today we are revisiting our Baking the Bisexual Happy Ending Cake episode.
[00:01:03] Yeah, this was pretty early on in the making of the show. I didn't realize how far back it was
[00:01:11] because it just sort of existed in my mind. And I was like, this is in the way back.
[00:01:16] Yeah, this came out in the summer of 2021. A simpler time, perhaps question mark.
[00:01:24] Wow.
[00:01:24] Yeah, my whole life just flashed before my eyes.
[00:01:26] Yeah.
[00:01:28] In the episode, I say something about how my partner and I have been together for a couple of years.
[00:01:33] And I was like, that's so wild.
[00:01:36] Here we are creeping up on six years.
[00:01:41] Yeah, like Sour had just come out. We were like, so excited about that. Like it was a simpler time.
[00:01:49] Yeah, this was before I changed my name. So that's in there.
[00:01:54] I do refer to you as your last name. I think only once though.
[00:01:57] Yeah. I think right at the beginning. Yeah.
[00:02:01] And to greet me, which is a normal thing to do.
[00:02:04] That's polite.
[00:02:06] This was also before we worked out some of our sound things. So it is going to be,
[00:02:12] you will probably have to turn up, you'll almost certainly have to turn up your volume.
[00:02:16] We're sorry. Don't at us.
[00:02:18] Yeah. We're just like soft spoken, you know?
[00:02:23] Yeah.
[00:02:25] Do you think don't at me? I mean, probably I'm showing my age with that phrase anyway at this point.
[00:02:30] But like with Twitter going the way of the dodo.
[00:02:36] Once I started, I was like, I have to make this bad bird pun.
[00:02:43] And that just like won't even be meaningful in the lexicon, will it?
[00:02:47] Like not that you use the tag in other things, but like.
[00:02:52] But it was like specifically you actually like we talk about Twitter in this episode and I'm like, wow.
[00:02:58] The way that I could never be bothered to look at like the new app now.
[00:03:02] Yeah. I guess it's not quite the way of the dodo.
[00:03:04] It's more like what's another bird that's on the edge of extinction, but still technically around.
[00:03:10] I don't have one at hand.
[00:03:12] I'm sure there's many.
[00:03:13] Yeah.
[00:03:15] All of the like endangered animals I could think of, I was like, oh, that's really sad.
[00:03:19] So I won't.
[00:03:22] Yeah.
[00:03:23] Just a different time.
[00:03:24] I don't know.
[00:03:24] That's a good question.
[00:03:26] I feel like, I mean, you still at people.
[00:03:28] But on Instagram.
[00:03:28] All the internet linguists let us know.
[00:03:30] Yeah.
[00:03:30] You can add us about that.
[00:03:32] You can add us about that.
[00:03:34] That's so funny.
[00:03:37] Yeah.
[00:03:38] What a time.
[00:03:40] Do you feel like your, how do you feel like you're like bisexual happy ending cake?
[00:03:45] Your image of that, your recipe has changed in the last, oh my God, three years.
[00:03:51] I think I generally feel more at peace, I guess.
[00:03:55] Like I feel, I feel not that worried about it.
[00:04:03] I think, well, first of all, I have been single that whole time.
[00:04:08] So I haven't had the like person in front of me where I had to think about like, what
[00:04:14] if I'm only with this person for a long time?
[00:04:19] Um, but also I think it's just become clear to me that I am like not really interested in
[00:04:29] being in a relationship with someone who is, uh, what do I want to say?
[00:04:36] Like, unequivocally invested in monogamy and like deeply invested in a particular gender dynamic.
[00:04:48] So like, it's not even, it's not that I'm like, I'm going to be in a non-monogamous relationship,
[00:04:58] but I'm not interested in a relationship where someone is like, we're not even going to have
[00:05:03] a conversation about this.
[00:05:04] It's not an option.
[00:05:05] This is how relationships are supposed to be.
[00:05:07] Like people are entitled to have that feeling.
[00:05:10] And also that's like, not, you're not going to date.
[00:05:13] We are not going to be like a good fit if that is their kind of like approach.
[00:05:17] And similarly with gender, like they don't have to be non-binary.
[00:05:23] Um, that's so generous.
[00:05:24] They're entitled to have whatever gender experience that they have.
[00:05:27] But I'm like, it's just really hard for me to imagine being in a supportive, like long
[00:05:36] term relationship with someone who is like, this is what gender is like.
[00:05:42] Like I am deeply invested in this particular idea.
[00:05:46] And I guess going along with that, this like, um, I don't, I'm like, I'm just going to date
[00:05:52] another bi person.
[00:05:53] I feel like it's what it's got to be.
[00:05:58] Um, and so I think like those feelings resolved some of the,
[00:06:06] like I talk in this episode about like, how do I win?
[00:06:11] Yeah.
[00:06:12] I'm like, have you won?
[00:06:14] Funny.
[00:06:15] Um, and I just, I feel less worried about that because I guess I'm more clear on like what
[00:06:26] will and will not work for me.
[00:06:28] Mm-hmm.
[00:06:29] And so I have sort of, uh, at least mentally like eliminated the hangups that ultimately
[00:06:37] like would not have served me.
[00:06:40] I mean, we'll see how it goes when there's, like I said, a person in front of me where I'm
[00:06:44] having to like confront those feelings.
[00:06:46] But, um, but yeah, I, I feel less worried than I did at the time.
[00:06:54] The bisexual happy ending cake was within you all along.
[00:07:00] Exactly.
[00:07:00] You are the cake.
[00:07:01] I am the cake.
[00:07:03] Put that on a t-shirt.
[00:07:04] Yes.
[00:07:04] If you cut me open, it's blue and pink and purple inside.
[00:07:08] What about you?
[00:07:10] If you cut me open, what colors?
[00:07:14] Um, yeah, I think I feel like I've, I've had a similar like development as you, though,
[00:07:21] I guess with different conclusions that, uh, I also don't feel as concerned about it.
[00:07:28] Um, perhaps I too am the cake.
[00:07:31] Um, I, at this point went in the episode we're about to air.
[00:07:36] I'd been with my boyfriend for a couple of years and I've been together for six years
[00:07:39] and I'm like, this is great.
[00:07:41] Let's keep doing this.
[00:07:44] Um, and in the episode I talk about, uh, like sometimes being like, oh my God, if I
[00:07:51] get what I want, I like will never have a wife.
[00:07:53] What am I going to do about that?
[00:07:55] Um, or like, how do I feel about that?
[00:07:56] Or like, what does that mean?
[00:07:59] And, uh, I reserve the right to feel that way sometimes in the future, I guess, but I
[00:08:04] don't really feel that way now.
[00:08:07] Um, I think in the last several years I've like really focused on like building a queer
[00:08:13] world around me.
[00:08:15] Um, like I listen to a lot of queer music.
[00:08:18] I, you know, have queer friendships, uh, queer, queer friends and queer friendships.
[00:08:24] I feel like perhaps there's a distinction.
[00:08:28] Um, and that has like been a part of, that's like been a huge project in building a life
[00:08:35] that I want to have.
[00:08:36] Um, and like envisioning a happy ending, what that would look like.
[00:08:41] Um, and I think we've talked a lot on the show actually in the last few years about ways
[00:08:47] to explore your bisexuality that are not about like engaging with other people romantically
[00:08:54] or sexually.
[00:08:55] Um, because we do get like a lot of messages from listeners who are like, you know, I realized
[00:09:02] that I was bisexual, I'm already in like a long-term committed relationship that I am
[00:09:06] like interested in staying in, not interested in opening up.
[00:09:10] Um, but like how do I explore myself?
[00:09:12] Um, and there's a lot of ways that you can do that.
[00:09:15] Um, and so I also feel like I don't have the same, like what if I don't get to be in my
[00:09:21] full self anxiety that I maybe like had some of years ago.
[00:09:27] Yeah.
[00:09:29] I feel like you've also really come into your, um, men are boring and I'm just not interested
[00:09:36] into them.
[00:09:37] I really have.
[00:09:38] I really have actually, um, in this episode I talk about how like, I'm not, I'm not concerned
[00:09:46] that there might be like other men that I could date.
[00:09:49] Cause I'm like truly who cares?
[00:09:51] Like, and I used to like always like be kind of like flippantly joking about that, but I
[00:09:56] now really am like, I'm just not interested.
[00:09:59] Like, I don't care.
[00:10:00] I have almost no interest in men TM, which is interesting.
[00:10:05] Um, like I have to remind myself, like this man that you're engaging with is being perfectly
[00:10:09] friendly.
[00:10:10] You all have mutual friends.
[00:10:11] Like, don't be a dick.
[00:10:12] Like just, I don't feel like about all men, men that I already like, like, as they've
[00:10:19] been grandfathered in.
[00:10:20] Yeah.
[00:10:21] Yeah.
[00:10:22] So, I mean, not everybody made it through the grandfathering process.
[00:10:24] Let me tell you.
[00:10:26] Um, but yeah, that's like, so true.
[00:10:28] I've noticed about myself that I'm just like men uninterested, like not even as like a bit,
[00:10:33] like I'm actually just like, that's not it for me right now.
[00:10:37] But like my boyfriend, very interested.
[00:10:40] Yeah.
[00:10:41] He was grandfathered in luckily.
[00:10:43] We have that episode that we recorded at some point.
[00:10:50] Um, where you talk about like, maybe there's some alternate universe where, you know, you're
[00:10:56] uninfluenced by heteronormativity and you don't ever date men, but like we don't exist in that.
[00:11:04] Yeah.
[00:11:05] That's not what happens.
[00:11:06] No.
[00:11:06] We are.
[00:11:08] This practice of revisiting episodes is, I think is really interesting.
[00:11:13] Like we do it both so that newer listeners to the show get introduced to older episodes
[00:11:20] that like maybe you didn't go back and put on.
[00:11:23] But also it is cool to see the way that like our thoughts and feelings evolve and touch
[00:11:30] in on like what is still true for us.
[00:11:34] What has changed.
[00:11:36] Yeah.
[00:11:37] Yeah.
[00:11:38] Um, whenever we do this, there's like a part of me when I go to listen to the episode,
[00:11:42] I'm like, oh my God, we're going to be like so embarrassing, cancelable.
[00:11:47] Um, but I actually don't feel that way.
[00:11:49] Even I've never, haven't felt that way about any of our episodes.
[00:11:51] I stand by what we said.
[00:11:53] Uh, um, but even if like our, like where we are personally has changed or evolved, or
[00:12:01] even if like the language that we use has evolved, it like still feels like really sincere.
[00:12:07] Yeah.
[00:12:08] Work.
[00:12:08] Um, that I think like was true when we made it.
[00:12:13] Um, which is cool to go back and read.
[00:12:15] Is that?
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:17] It is.
[00:12:18] Um, I also in the episode talk a lot about like future parenting anxiety coming out to
[00:12:26] my children.
[00:12:27] Um, which is funny.
[00:12:29] Um, I don't have any biological children yet, so to be determined.
[00:12:34] Um, but my stepson knows that I'm bisexual because he asked what my podcast was about.
[00:12:40] Yeah.
[00:12:40] And I was like, it's about bisexuality.
[00:12:42] And he was like, oh, so you're bisexual then.
[00:12:44] And I was like, it would be so wild if I wasn't.
[00:12:47] And I was like, I'm going to make a show.
[00:12:50] Um, and that was it.
[00:12:51] That was kind of the conversation.
[00:12:52] It has like come up here and there, but he's also, he's a teenager.
[00:12:56] So yeah.
[00:12:57] Yeah.
[00:12:57] Yeah.
[00:12:57] It was funny to hear that bit because I was like, you're not going to have to come out
[00:13:02] to your kids.
[00:13:02] It's going to be very apparent.
[00:13:04] Yeah.
[00:13:05] Like, like they're not, they're not going to grow up thinking that you're a straight
[00:13:10] person.
[00:13:10] That's true.
[00:13:11] Um, they might grow up not thinking about like, uh, their parents orientation because
[00:13:17] they'll grow up in a like loving queer household.
[00:13:21] Yeah.
[00:13:22] Um, but as soon as that becomes like a question, uh, I think it's going to be fine.
[00:13:30] Um, if for no other reason than all of the pride merch that you own, like, that's true.
[00:13:37] They're like, Oh, what's that rainbow flag?
[00:13:39] That's true.
[00:13:40] And also like something that I have to, I was thinking about when I was relistening is
[00:13:44] that like your kids don't like come into the world, like knowing anything about anything
[00:13:50] like, like it's not like a stranger arrives in your house and then you have to like convince
[00:13:55] them.
[00:13:56] I mean, that is what happens, but like they don't have like preconceived notions about
[00:14:00] gender.
[00:14:01] Um, and like these things, like, like you said, it'll be like clear and obvious in like
[00:14:11] the media that we consume and the books that I choose and the way that we talk about other
[00:14:16] people and things like that.
[00:14:18] Yeah.
[00:14:19] They're not unlike your stepson.
[00:14:21] They're not going to show up as formed people who are like have to be caught up on the lore.
[00:14:26] That's true.
[00:14:27] They're going to know the lore.
[00:14:28] Like they're going to learn the lore at like a reasonable pace.
[00:14:31] Yeah.
[00:14:32] Yeah.
[00:14:33] Caught up on the lore.
[00:14:38] Yeah.
[00:14:38] So I don't really feel anxiety about that at this time.
[00:14:40] That's great.
[00:14:41] Yeah.
[00:14:42] I'm glad.
[00:14:43] Yeah.
[00:14:43] Me too.
[00:14:45] It was good.
[00:14:48] Um, we both baked today, which is kind of funny because it's like, oh yeah, cake.
[00:14:54] I made muffins.
[00:14:55] I made blondies.
[00:14:56] No cake.
[00:14:57] No cake.
[00:14:57] I mean, a cupcake is, or it's not a cupcake.
[00:15:00] A muffin is like sort of a cake.
[00:15:02] Like if you really think about it.
[00:15:03] That's true.
[00:15:04] Yeah.
[00:15:04] Um, yeah, maybe we were being subliminally influenced by ourselves, by ourselves.
[00:15:11] Yeah.
[00:15:12] If this episode encourages, like influences you to go bake, please add us.
[00:15:18] Yeah.
[00:15:18] Let us know.
[00:15:19] Yeah.
[00:15:19] And also send us some.
[00:15:21] Slide into our DMs.
[00:15:25] Well, uh, we hope that you enjoyed this episode.
[00:15:28] Um, we are still on a break.
[00:15:30] Uh, you'll be getting new episodes from us pretty soon.
[00:15:33] Um, but if you miss us, tell your friends to listen to the show.
[00:15:37] Um, and we have a whole archive.
[00:15:40] So if you're like, wow, I want to hear baby Christina and baby Evan talking about ideas
[00:15:45] four years ago.
[00:15:46] You can in fact do that.
[00:15:48] You can.
[00:15:49] Yeah.
[00:15:49] Yeah.
[00:15:50] We also have episodes on Patreon.
[00:15:53] Yeah.
[00:15:54] Um, and we will be releasing one of those.
[00:15:56] So it's, it's exiting the vault for your listening pleasure next month.
[00:16:02] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:03] Okay.
[00:16:04] Well, without further ado, here's the episode.
[00:16:08] Enjoy.
[00:16:09] Hi, Christina.
[00:16:11] Hi, Chelsea.
[00:16:12] How's it going?
[00:16:15] Are we going to do this every episode?
[00:16:17] No.
[00:16:18] No, I won't ask how it's going.
[00:16:20] Nevermind.
[00:16:22] Nevermind.
[00:16:23] Just hello.
[00:16:24] That's all.
[00:16:24] Episode over.
[00:16:29] I know you usually ask this, but what have you been thinking about, Christina?
[00:16:36] A great many things, but, uh, like today specifically, today specifically, I've been thinking about
[00:16:43] breakup albums, um, because of Sour.
[00:16:47] Um, I've like already listened to the album many, many times.
[00:16:51] Um, and I've been thinking about like other breakup albums and like breakup art in general.
[00:16:58] Um, because I really like it.
[00:16:59] Like all of my Spotify playlists, I have like categories for different moods and I have
[00:17:05] like multiple breakup playlists that I like listen to all the time, even when I'm not going
[00:17:09] through a breakup.
[00:17:11] Um, and I don't know why that is.
[00:17:13] I don't know why I'm like more drawn to breakup art than love art.
[00:17:18] Um, but also like one of the, I have four parts in my book and one of the parts is like mostly
[00:17:23] breakup poems.
[00:17:24] Um, and to me, like I had to, I really enjoyed writing those poems, but, or sometimes some
[00:17:29] of them I didn't, um, but like I like the other parts of my book.
[00:17:35] Like I think the other parts are more unique, but like everybody who's read the book so far
[00:17:40] is like, oh, your breakup poem is really sticking with me.
[00:17:42] And for some reason I don't like that, um, which is weird.
[00:17:46] Cause I'm like, I love, I consume breakup art all the time, but I like want to be more
[00:17:49] interesting than that.
[00:17:51] But breakups are really interesting.
[00:17:53] Um, so I've been thinking about like, um, specifically breakup albums and like how, um, that like form
[00:18:02] gives you the space to like, um, talk about a whole process.
[00:18:06] Um, and I don't know, just like all the different like facets and variations, um, of experience
[00:18:13] like go into like every single breakup and like all of kind of like the phases that you
[00:18:18] move through.
[00:18:19] Um, and I've also been thinking about like how people really connect with breakup art.
[00:18:25] Um, even like me as, um, not a teenager.
[00:18:30] Um, I was like, oh yeah, like maybe four years ago I could have, this album like would
[00:18:35] have been, um, a day in the life.
[00:18:37] Um, so yeah, I've been thinking a lot about that.
[00:18:41] I don't think you know this about me, but I did a project, um, in college, a friend and
[00:18:48] I put together a digital magazine called umbrella terms.
[00:18:53] And one of the things that I did for it, um, we put out an, um, an issue, I was going
[00:18:58] to say an episode, um, put out an issue, um, about endings.
[00:19:04] And so I did a like, I don't know, photo interview series or something.
[00:19:13] I don't know what to call it.
[00:19:14] I asked people, what does the beginning of a relationship feel like?
[00:19:20] And what does the end of a relationship feel like?
[00:19:24] And then I took photos of them, like while they were describing the beginnings and ends
[00:19:32] of relationships, um, and put it together into a like photo series.
[00:19:37] Oh, that's so cool.
[00:19:39] Um, I will find it and share it with you.
[00:19:42] It was really fun to do and like interesting to hear like, um, what people had to say.
[00:19:50] And like some people described like the beginnings and the ends of relationships, like very similarly.
[00:19:56] Um, which is also interesting.
[00:19:59] Yeah.
[00:20:00] Or it can be a cycle.
[00:20:02] But yeah, I was thinking about, I like, I'm not a, I'm not a Taylor Swift hater, but I'm
[00:20:07] also, I mean like I have complicated feelings about her, like as a person and sort of like
[00:20:11] her recent, uh, suddenly she cares about politics and stuff.
[00:20:15] But, um, uh, in terms of her music, I've always like liked it, but kind of casually, except
[00:20:21] for 1989, because that came out like the weekend I was going through a breakup.
[00:20:24] So like that was on repeat.
[00:20:26] But I feel like that album and like other albums that I listened to when I was younger, um,
[00:20:33] were different from the breakup albums.
[00:20:35] I like now because like if I had Sour, like at no point does Olivia Rodrigo like want to
[00:20:40] get back with this person, you know?
[00:20:43] Um, I felt like, or I feel like, um, a lot of her songs are about like, she wants to be
[00:20:48] like seen and she wants to be remembered and she wants her to be like space for her experience,
[00:20:53] um, in the breakup and in the person's future.
[00:20:56] Um, which I really relate to.
[00:20:58] The unhealed parts of myself love deja vu, let me tell you.
[00:21:02] Um, but I like wish that I, I'm sure that there were albums that were like that, um,
[00:21:08] when I was younger, but I wish that I had more, that I had those models because Taylor
[00:21:13] Swift was like, let's come back to this love.
[00:21:16] And then I got back with that person and wasted more time in my life.
[00:21:19] But that's a different story for a different day.
[00:21:23] Um, what have you been thinking about?
[00:21:24] I have also been thinking a lot about Sour.
[00:21:28] I guess we should perhaps clarify the time that we're recording it, the album like just
[00:21:33] came out.
[00:21:34] Yeah.
[00:21:35] Um, so by the time this is released, the people will have a little, have had a little bit
[00:21:40] more time to marinate in, um, in the excellence.
[00:21:44] Yeah.
[00:21:45] These are fresh tapes.
[00:21:46] Yeah.
[00:21:47] Yeah.
[00:21:47] But I listened to it like five consecutive times like yesterday.
[00:21:52] Yeah.
[00:21:53] Me too.
[00:21:56] Um, I really love it.
[00:21:57] I have also been thinking about like, um, what I occasionally wish that like artists that
[00:22:08] I listened to, that I listened to now had been out when I was in high school.
[00:22:13] I feel that way very strongly about like Lorde.
[00:22:16] Oh yeah.
[00:22:17] Um, like I was already in, I was a junior in college when Lorde's first album came out,
[00:22:27] I want to say.
[00:22:28] Um, or at least when people were like really talking about her for the first time.
[00:22:32] Um, and, um, and, um, and even like Billie Eilish, like there's a lot of really great, um, women
[00:22:45] and femmes particularly, um, making music right now.
[00:22:50] But also the flip side is that like, um, I maybe didn't need any like more like moody,
[00:23:01] like serious music to be listening to.
[00:23:03] Like I already sometimes think about like, um, I was not super into Taylor Swift when I was in high school
[00:23:14] because I was still very much in the, like, I'm too cool to like things that are popular phase of my life.
[00:23:19] Yeah.
[00:23:20] Um, yep.
[00:23:23] Um, but even not being a Taylor Swift fan, there were still, um, oh my God, I can't think of the name now.
[00:23:32] Um, but the song that's like comparing her to another girl.
[00:23:38] Oh, she wears short skirts.
[00:23:39] Yes.
[00:23:39] I wear t-shirts.
[00:23:40] Yes.
[00:23:40] Um, my sister and I, I would, when I was a senior, my sister was a freshman in high school
[00:23:46] and I would drive us to school in the morning.
[00:23:48] Um, and we would, my sister was a Taylor Swift fan and we would play that song and like, just
[00:23:55] like scream it.
[00:23:58] Um, as I was like longing for, um, a boy not paying any attention to me.
[00:24:06] Um, the one I had the dream about that I told you about.
[00:24:09] Oh.
[00:24:09] Yeah.
[00:24:10] Wow.
[00:24:10] Just randomly thought.
[00:24:12] Oh, it comes back from that.
[00:24:14] Um, but yeah.
[00:24:15] So like that song, which is really, you know, it's a catchy song, but not particularly full
[00:24:21] of emotional nuance.
[00:24:22] I was like deeply invested in.
[00:24:25] So like, I can't imagine, um, it's actually maybe for the best for my like mental health.
[00:24:32] Yeah.
[00:24:33] Yeah.
[00:24:33] I don't think I had like the capability to, um, to like hold all of that nuance.
[00:24:38] Yeah.
[00:24:38] Yeah.
[00:24:39] Yeah.
[00:24:41] Which I like can't shut up about.
[00:24:43] Um, it's a breakup album, but it's a divorce album and both members of the marriage are
[00:24:50] in the band, which I'm like, that is wild.
[00:24:53] I am, I'm not there.
[00:24:55] I would like never be able.
[00:24:56] Um, but the person who writes the songs, um, is Mandy, the lead singer.
[00:25:01] Um, and that her ex-husband is the drummer and they were together for like a decade.
[00:25:06] So I think, and it seems like they also like had time kind of out of like the limelight
[00:25:10] to like deal with the breakup and then come back like as friends.
[00:25:14] And then like the music was made.
[00:25:17] Um, they were able to kind of like keep it private while they like had time to, um, to
[00:25:22] process and everything.
[00:25:23] Um, but there's so much nuance in that album.
[00:25:26] There's like a song where she kind of like blames him for everything.
[00:25:29] But then at the end she says like, it's only half the truth, but it's still true.
[00:25:33] And I think that maybe if like I'd had a little bit of that could have been helpful, but I
[00:25:38] also don't know that I would have like made space for it.
[00:25:41] Yeah.
[00:25:43] It's very, I mean, I think a lot about my teenage self for a variety of reasons.
[00:25:49] One is that like, I feel like becoming an adult for me has actually just been like letting
[00:25:54] myself be and like all of the things that I like didn't let myself engage with as a teenager.
[00:26:03] Oh yeah.
[00:26:04] Um, and then also because I'm, I mean maybe partly for that reason, I'm really interested
[00:26:11] in like young adult literature and like content, I guess also.
[00:26:18] Um, and write stories about teenagers and young people.
[00:26:24] And so I think a lot about like, um, those, I don't know, formative experiences and also
[00:26:34] the sort of, uh, culture that I consumed and that like teenagers now are consuming.
[00:26:45] I could go very off topic about that, but I mean like the fact that teens like no longer
[00:26:50] have to go to Claire's and get like the thick goopy glitter gloss, like they have makeup,
[00:26:55] the tutorials, they look better than I do.
[00:26:58] It's, it's a lot, it's a lot for me to process.
[00:27:02] Uh, something that I was thinking about, um, is the, it feels very much like everyone is
[00:27:10] listening to this album right now.
[00:27:12] Mm-hmm.
[00:27:13] And that was an exciting experience to like go on Twitter and like, oh yeah, I like searched
[00:27:21] Olivia Rodrigo on Twitter.
[00:27:22] I was like, what are the kids saying?
[00:27:24] What's going on?
[00:27:24] Let's talk.
[00:27:26] Um, yeah.
[00:27:27] And so to see a variety of like different people that I'm following be like posting about sour
[00:27:34] and like liking tweets about sour.
[00:27:36] Yeah.
[00:27:36] Um, and it feels like a very communal experience and it's nice to have that in general.
[00:27:44] I also particularly appreciate that it's, um, to be having that experience with an artist
[00:27:50] that isn't like Taylor Swift, um, or isn't someone that is like a huge name that like when they
[00:28:04] come out with an album, it's sort of expected that it's going to be like buzzy in a certain
[00:28:09] way.
[00:28:10] Like this feels, um, it feels very much like, oh, this is one of the things that can be wonderful
[00:28:19] about the internet and about like streaming music that we can all be like having a shared
[00:28:25] experience in a way that like in the past you would have had to, I mean, I guess they're
[00:28:33] still, you know, buying an MP3 on iTunes or whatever, but like, um, there, there wasn't
[00:28:41] like online, there weren't online spaces where you could talk.
[00:28:44] Yeah.
[00:28:45] And then if you go farther back, it's like, okay, well, an album might be really popular,
[00:28:49] but you're gonna have to go to the store and physically buy it.
[00:28:52] And then, you know, who are you talking with about it?
[00:28:55] Because you don't necessarily have those communal spaces.
[00:28:58] And, um, that feels really cool and, um, is nice to, I don't know, witness or be a part
[00:29:10] of particularly, um, during a, um, during the pandemonium, um, of maybe not having as
[00:29:20] many community experiences.
[00:29:23] Yeah.
[00:29:23] I also like the shamelessness of it.
[00:29:25] I feel like if this album had come out in high school, I would have like listened to
[00:29:29] it unironically in private, like on my iPod.
[00:29:32] Yeah.
[00:29:33] Or in this, like in my Walkman or whatever.
[00:29:35] I guess in high school it would have been an iPod.
[00:29:38] Anyways, um, but I would have been like, oh, I don't, who's Olivia Rodrigo?
[00:29:43] Like, I don't know who that is, but I feel like all of these adults are like shamelessly
[00:29:47] being like, she made a great album.
[00:29:49] She did a great thing.
[00:29:50] Um, it's giving a lot of people permission to be like, yeah, we have these big feelings.
[00:29:55] Um, and it's really cool when somebody can like articulate it.
[00:29:58] It makes you feel less lonely.
[00:30:00] Yeah.
[00:30:01] Yeah.
[00:30:02] The last thing that I'll say on this topic is I saw a really great tweet, um, which I
[00:30:11] will look up so that we can credit this person, uh, in the show notes.
[00:30:15] Um, but the tweet was like Olivia Rodrigo.
[00:30:19] I'm so tired of 17.
[00:30:21] Where's my fucking teenage dream?
[00:30:23] Me, 27.
[00:30:25] Yeah, bestie.
[00:30:26] Me too.
[00:30:27] Oh yeah, I saw that.
[00:30:29] Yeah.
[00:30:30] It's really funny.
[00:30:31] There's a lot of like content about like, especially on Twitter where people are like
[00:30:35] dragging 20 something and 30 somethings for like relating, but in like kind of a funny
[00:30:39] way.
[00:30:39] Um, and I'm like, I mean the last time that I like let some dumb boy like make me feel that
[00:30:45] way.
[00:30:45] I was not 17.
[00:30:48] I was way too old.
[00:30:50] Yeah.
[00:30:50] Honestly, there's a part of me that wishes I had like left that.
[00:30:53] Yeah.
[00:30:54] But like, uh, I didn't really date in high school.
[00:30:58] Uh, it was not until college that I was like, I had a lot of big stupid feelings about boys
[00:31:05] in high school.
[00:31:05] Yeah.
[00:31:06] Um, but didn't actually like date anyone.
[00:31:10] Um, and so college was really my like prime stupid feelings years.
[00:31:15] Um, and there's a part of me that was like, man, could I have gotten that out of my system
[00:31:20] earlier?
[00:31:21] Maybe if I, this had started at 17.
[00:31:24] Yeah.
[00:31:25] Maybe I would have been further ahead in my emotional development.
[00:31:28] Yeah.
[00:31:29] Yeah.
[00:31:29] And said I was just like having closet crushes on girls and acting like I was like that made
[00:31:34] sense of heterosexuality.
[00:31:39] Yeah.
[00:31:41] Well, uh, speaking of the past and now moving into the future, you were the segway.
[00:31:46] That was a rough segway, but time it's a circle.
[00:31:49] I don't know.
[00:31:50] Anyways.
[00:31:51] Um, also, you know, um, closeted feelings.
[00:31:54] That's true.
[00:31:58] Um, last time we recorded, you posed a question that I think we have talked about off mic before
[00:32:04] a little bit, but that like I've, it's kind of been ruminating in my head.
[00:32:08] Um, you asked like what a bisexual happy ending looks like.
[00:32:14] Um, and so we thought we could kind of like ruminate on that today.
[00:32:19] Um, so what do you kind of like mean by that question?
[00:32:23] I guess like when you think about like a bisexual happy ending, either what is like part of that
[00:32:28] look like for you or like what, um, kind of like blocks or, um, barricades.
[00:32:36] That sounds like a really dramatic word.
[00:32:38] Um, but what do you think?
[00:32:39] Like, what do you think navigating that feels like?
[00:32:42] I guess you can answer any or none of those questions.
[00:32:44] Um, yeah, as a person that is attracted to multiple genders, but that lives in a monogamous
[00:33:00] society, um, what does it look like to validate and like make space for?
[00:33:17] All the parts of my identity and my desire.
[00:33:24] Um, and because kind of the, the narrative on some level is that like you meet a person
[00:33:38] and you know, you do the dating or whatever and you get on the, do the dating, you get on the
[00:33:43] relationship escalator and the relationship just, you know, continues to progress upward
[00:33:50] until you get married and you know, you have your 2.5 kids or whatever.
[00:33:56] And like, even if you deviate from that a little bit and maybe you don't have any kids or maybe
[00:34:02] you are in a 1.5 kid.
[00:34:04] Yeah.
[00:34:04] Or, you know, you're in a committed relationship, but you don't get married.
[00:34:08] Like even if you deviate from it a little bit, like by and large, the, um, the cultural
[00:34:18] narrative is sort of more or less the same.
[00:34:20] And what's kind of baked into that is you're going to be with this one person and their,
[00:34:29] you know, one gender identity, which I hadn't thought about before, but this also the sort
[00:34:34] of assumes like, um, that you assumes like cis people who are, have a consistent, like,
[00:34:45] uh, like a consistent gender, like they're not going to change or vary.
[00:34:49] Yeah.
[00:34:49] Which is, I hadn't thought about that element of it before, but it's interesting.
[00:34:52] So, but yeah, the, the narrative kind of presumes like you're going to pick someone that someone
[00:34:58] is going to have a gender and then the two of you are, you know, going to be together indefinitely.
[00:35:07] And that means that you won't ever like be with anyone of any other gender again.
[00:35:19] Um, and that sounds really melancholy and depressing to me.
[00:35:25] Like, um, I mean, you know, falling in love with someone and wanting to be with them long
[00:35:32] term, it sounds nice.
[00:35:34] Um, but you're like, I guess, I guess that's cool or whatever.
[00:35:39] Um, but the idea of like, oh, um, you sort of can't have it both ways.
[00:35:50] Like you can't have a fulfilling long term relationship and like engage with being multi-attracted.
[00:36:14] Um, and so I think a lot about what does, what is it that I want and like what space do
[00:36:27] I feel like exists for me?
[00:36:30] Um, because as I said, like all of those things are very much based in the like dominant narrative.
[00:36:37] And so it's not that you have to be monogamous and it's not that you have to have long term
[00:36:44] relationships.
[00:36:45] Like you don't have to do any of those things, but not having to do something and having a
[00:36:51] model for what it would look like to do something different are like not the same thing.
[00:36:55] Yeah.
[00:36:57] Um, and it's something that I like want to be hopeful about.
[00:37:07] Um, but it definitely like gets me in my like sad bi feelings sometimes.
[00:37:14] Yeah.
[00:37:15] Yeah.
[00:37:16] That makes a lot of sense.
[00:37:17] And, um, I think there's like a conversation that I see happening a lot, like from biphobic
[00:37:23] perspectives of like, you can't trust like a bi or pan person because like they might fall
[00:37:29] in love with someone else, which is always true regardless of the person's sexuality.
[00:37:34] Yeah.
[00:37:34] I can, um, testify.
[00:37:36] Straight people do that too.
[00:37:38] Um, but so I think like it's, I just want to like separate like bi people can be monogamous
[00:37:45] or whatever.
[00:37:45] Like there's, we're not a monolith, you know?
[00:37:48] Um, but I do think there is something to like, I mean, I've just never been straight, but I
[00:37:53] would assume that like, even as a straight person, there's a moment like in a relationship
[00:37:58] where you're like, Oh, like I'm probably never going to like make out with somebody else again.
[00:38:04] I mean, that's, I think the narrative of like men being afraid of commitment is sort of like,
[00:38:08] but I'm never going to fuck another woman.
[00:38:11] Yeah.
[00:38:11] And I don't think that's what you're talking about.
[00:38:13] You're talking about like expressing yourself fully is what it sounds like to me.
[00:38:17] Yeah.
[00:38:17] I mean, I guess maybe there is like some element of like commitment phobia that might like exist
[00:38:23] in there, but it, I think for me it comes out of like, am I, do I lose some part of myself
[00:38:33] in that?
[00:38:35] Um, particularly because, because we live in a world where you're assumed straight, then
[00:38:41] like if you are in a longterm relationship with a man, then it's like, Oh, you're a straight
[00:38:50] person, which is like something that you've spoken to before.
[00:38:53] And even, you know, if you're in a longterm relationship with someone of the same gender,
[00:38:59] then you have, you know, exactly.
[00:39:02] Yeah.
[00:39:02] We kind of, um, we talked about this, I think off mic a while ago, but, um, I really like,
[00:39:08] I've been with my partner for like a couple of years and, um, I feel like this is the
[00:39:14] person that I like want to do life with.
[00:39:16] Um, and I'm a monogamous person.
[00:39:19] Um, I'm, I just, that's just like my orientation.
[00:39:23] Um, and I don't really feel like there's honestly no part of me that's like, but what about the
[00:39:28] other men out there?
[00:39:30] I'll be honest.
[00:39:31] Um, and I usually don't really feel a lot of like FOMO about like dating and stuff just
[00:39:40] because like, I don't, I've just like had a lot of breakups and, um, also because I feel
[00:39:46] like I'm in a place, I like, I'm in a relationship where I do get to like be my whole self and
[00:39:51] like my queerness is like part of the relationship.
[00:39:54] It is a queer relationship because I exist in it.
[00:39:56] Um, and I knew that if that didn't exist, put that on a bumper sticker.
[00:40:00] Truly.
[00:40:00] Yeah.
[00:40:00] I had one of my, um, queer friends said that to me once.
[00:40:04] Um, he was like, well, every relationship that you're ever going to be in is queer because
[00:40:09] you will be in it.
[00:40:10] And I was like, wow, why didn't I think of that?
[00:40:13] Um, but it was so affirming.
[00:40:14] Um, and my partner like also affirms that, um, often.
[00:40:19] Um, and so I think because I have that space, like, and because I'm monogamous, um,
[00:40:24] I don't feel that as much, but like I did have a, like way at the beginning when we first
[00:40:30] started dating, um, I think we had maybe gone out on like one date and I'm so like obnoxiously
[00:40:36] monogamous that I'm like, I can't have feelings for more than one person at once, at least
[00:40:40] not like seriously.
[00:40:41] So, um, even though it would have been really acceptable for me to date other people at that
[00:40:45] point in the relationship, I just didn't.
[00:40:47] Um, but this like girl that I was in school with, like maybe asked me out or maybe asked
[00:40:54] me out as a friend and I wasn't sure.
[00:40:56] Um, and I had, and she ended up being straight, I think as far as I know, I tried to like drop
[00:41:00] some hints, but she was really nice.
[00:41:02] And we just like hung out and had coffee and it was cool.
[00:41:04] But I remember telling my friend about it and I was like, oh no, like I really liked this
[00:41:09] guy, but also like this really pretty girl wants to like spend time with me.
[00:41:13] What do I do?
[00:41:13] And he was like, well, he's straight.
[00:41:16] He was like, can't you just, can't you just do that?
[00:41:19] And then like, see, and I was like, I don't know.
[00:41:22] Um, that's just my hang up.
[00:41:25] Um, and that feels different, I guess, cause I wasn't like in a committed relationship yet.
[00:41:29] Um, and ended up not really being a thing, but, um, I think I've like always kind of joked
[00:41:35] that I would like marry a man, have kids, and then the man would leave me and that I would
[00:41:40] like get a wife.
[00:41:41] Um, I don't know where I got that narrative from, but that's like, have heard you say
[00:41:45] this multiple times.
[00:41:46] Yeah.
[00:41:46] That's like my flippant, like that's my future plan, whatever.
[00:41:49] Um, and now that I am like with the person who I plan to like go through life with, um,
[00:41:56] I'm like, oh, I like don't want him to leave me.
[00:42:01] Wild.
[00:42:02] I know.
[00:42:03] How unexpected.
[00:42:03] I know.
[00:42:04] I'm really, um, interesting and different.
[00:42:06] Um, and I mean like, I don't know what the future will look like.
[00:42:10] Obviously nobody does.
[00:42:11] There's no guarantees, you know, disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer.
[00:42:14] But I like did have a, a couple of moments and it happens every once in a while where
[00:42:19] I'm like, oh, like I'm never going to have a wife probably.
[00:42:22] Um, and I don't necessarily, that doesn't make me want to change my choices because I'm very
[00:42:28] in love and I'm very happy.
[00:42:29] Um, but it is kind of like a, oh, like that's the thing that I will presumably not ever experience.
[00:42:37] Um, and I, like I said, because of like the particular situation in situation that I'm in,
[00:42:44] I feel okay about it.
[00:42:47] Um, but it was like a weird feeling and I don't feel that way about like, I'll never have a
[00:42:51] different husband.
[00:42:53] It's like, who cares?
[00:42:55] Um, like, yeah, I don't, that's, that like feels really specifically bisexual to me.
[00:43:01] Um, and I feel like I'm like, I want to be very careful in this conversation because like,
[00:43:05] I just want to like reiterate that like, I am very happy with my choice.
[00:43:08] Um, I'm not like, oh my God, I'll, I'm never going to be fully happy, I guess in this situation.
[00:43:13] Um, because for me, like, I think that I will be fully happy, but something else I think about
[00:43:17] is like, you know, in this relationship, like I'm affirmed, I'm queer, I have queer space,
[00:43:23] whatever.
[00:43:24] But like, and I also really want to have kids.
[00:43:26] It's been something that's like been very important to me from a really young age.
[00:43:30] Um, and I'm like, do I come out to my kids?
[00:43:33] Like, how does the bisexuality continue?
[00:43:36] Um, I don't know any, I have friends who are older, but honestly, they're all like either
[00:43:43] gay or straight or like by pan without children.
[00:43:51] So I'm kind of like, where's the map?
[00:43:53] And I don't have one.
[00:43:54] Um, and I mean, my parents, as far as I know, are both straight.
[00:43:58] So like, we also never had a conversation about just so you know, I'm attracted to,
[00:44:03] you know?
[00:44:03] Yeah.
[00:44:04] Um, so, and I think that that's something I don't want to have kids for like a long time.
[00:44:08] So I like have a lot of time to kind of figure it out.
[00:44:11] Um, but I think about that in terms of like my own personal bisexual happy ending is like,
[00:44:15] how do I continue to like, um, exist and take up all the space that I get to now?
[00:44:21] Um, you know, as like my life changes.
[00:44:27] Um, and yeah, I don't know.
[00:44:32] Like, that's like my question mark.
[00:44:35] Um, but I think that's like very particular to being in like a queer affirming relationship.
[00:44:39] And it's also very particular to being like a monogamous person.
[00:44:42] Um, yeah.
[00:44:43] Um, I think also part of what I think about, um, as someone who is not currently in a relationship
[00:44:55] is the kind of like pressure that I feel and that I like put on myself to quote unquote
[00:45:07] like choose the right thing.
[00:45:11] Um, and trying to parse out like what I feel and want from all of the like cultural messages
[00:45:22] that I'm swimming in.
[00:45:23] And so like I was raised in a context where like the assumption was that like I would like
[00:45:34] that I was straight and so then that I would like be with men.
[00:45:39] Um, and then in like a queer context, there's definitely a lot of like bi phobia that exists,
[00:45:51] particularly on the internet, which we talked about in our bi pan episode a lot.
[00:45:56] Um, that sort of says like, yeah, like it's okay if you're bisexual, but like you're only
[00:46:03] really queer if actually you like end up in a relationship with someone that's has a different,
[00:46:13] uh, has the same or like this also gets also queer.
[00:46:17] Yeah.
[00:46:17] I was like, this gets really different.
[00:46:19] All of this is also very based on a lot of assumptions about gender.
[00:46:23] So I'm like, yeah, it gets, uh, difficult to describe.
[00:46:28] Um, because we don't have a lot of great language around gender.
[00:46:33] Yeah.
[00:46:33] And there's so many assumptions, like even what you just brought up a few minutes ago,
[00:46:36] like I actually hadn't thought about that.
[00:46:39] Um, that like that assumption that you're going to like stick with a person forever.
[00:46:44] Um, also like means that we like within that, we also assume that like their gender is stagnant.
[00:46:50] Yeah.
[00:46:50] Which is probably not true, you know?
[00:46:53] Yeah.
[00:46:55] Um, and a conversation, um, that I was having the other day with a friend who, um, is non-binary
[00:47:06] and bi.
[00:47:08] Um, I believe that bi is the identifier that they use, but attracted to multiple genders.
[00:47:17] And we were having a conversation about like, um, one of the things that they're concerned
[00:47:25] about is also like, if they date straight men, do they have to like reassure, um, straight
[00:47:37] men that they're still straight if they're like with a non-binary person, which is something
[00:47:42] that I hadn't thought about, but I was like, oh, actually that might be something that
[00:47:46] I want to think about a little bit more as like, um, as my, uh, when I've like dated in
[00:47:58] the past, I was using she and her pronouns.
[00:48:03] Um, and now I use they and them and like, I would say my physical presentation hasn't
[00:48:11] changed like dramatically, but like at the moment I have a super, super short haircut.
[00:48:16] Um, and just like little things about like how I show up in the world that like, um, I was
[00:48:23] thinking about them from the perspective of like, will people find, will men specifically
[00:48:28] find me like physically attractive, but not thinking about like, oh, what's their like
[00:48:34] experience or interpretation of like their own sexual identity going to be based on my
[00:48:42] like gender identity.
[00:48:47] And that also feels like a, uh, like piece of the puzzle of that.
[00:48:56] That's a piece that I've thought less about because it's a little bit newer for me.
[00:49:01] Um, but also feels like something that kind of complicates the, like, what is, um, what
[00:49:11] do I want?
[00:49:13] I mean, I want a lot of things, but like what feels like, um, I use the word success a lot
[00:49:23] in this context.
[00:49:24] Um, not because I think that there's actually any way particularly to be like successful in
[00:49:34] relationships, but that's like honestly how it feels to me a lot of times is like, because
[00:49:40] we also use the, like the idea of like a failed relationship.
[00:49:43] So it makes sense that like, we also have the successful vocabulary.
[00:49:46] Yeah.
[00:49:47] And that like, I mean, I think successful could be used in a like productive, that's also a
[00:49:54] loaded word, but like in a generative way in terms of like a successful relationship
[00:49:59] is one like where you communicate or one where you like fully see each other.
[00:50:04] But, and sometimes that's what I mean when I say success, but a lot of times what I mean
[00:50:08] is like, did you win?
[00:50:10] Did I win?
[00:50:11] Um, and I think maybe also because of the sort of relationship escalator is like, well, you've
[00:50:17] gotten to the top.
[00:50:18] Like there's no, you've gotten as far as you can go, which is the apex.
[00:50:22] Um, when you like have a partner and you get married and you're going to be together forever.
[00:50:29] And so that's winning.
[00:50:30] And that actually doesn't appeal to me.
[00:50:32] I'm not interested in getting married and maybe also not interested in monogamy.
[00:50:39] That's like an evolving question, but yeah.
[00:50:44] Like, uh, there are a lot of questions.
[00:50:49] And so I often ask myself like, well, how do I win?
[00:50:52] And the answer is like, you don't win.
[00:50:55] But how do I win the game?
[00:50:56] Yeah.
[00:50:57] Yeah.
[00:50:57] The straight men question is interesting.
[00:50:58] I think I'm like not non-binary, so I can't obviously speak to the experience, but I would
[00:51:03] think that like, so like if my partner needed me to like reassure him that he was still straight,
[00:51:09] even though he was attracted to a queer person, that would make me feel pretty erased.
[00:51:13] Yeah.
[00:51:13] I think like for you to be like, oh, like my gender, like doesn't have to be like real
[00:51:20] or consequential to you.
[00:51:21] Like the way that you think of me and your brain can be different from how I identify.
[00:51:25] Um, feels like maybe some like nuanced and murky territory, um, that I guess everybody
[00:51:31] would have to navigate for themselves.
[00:51:32] But I also hadn't thought of that.
[00:51:35] Yeah.
[00:51:36] I mean, I don't think I'm particularly interested in being in a relationship with anyone who
[00:51:40] is averse to the idea of their being queer.
[00:51:43] Yeah.
[00:51:44] Um, yeah.
[00:51:45] But I, it's easy to say that in the abstract and it's very different when you like have
[00:51:50] a person in front of you that you are invested in and they're like, I'm having an emotional
[00:51:54] experience.
[00:51:55] And you're like, well, I'm also having an emotional experience.
[00:52:00] Yeah.
[00:52:01] Yeah.
[00:52:02] Yeah.
[00:52:02] And I mean like there, there, I'm sure that there is space for like a straight partner
[00:52:06] to, you know, navigate what I also like.
[00:52:10] I just, I don't know what it's like to be non-attracted.
[00:52:12] I feel like I've said that a couple times.
[00:52:13] But I'm always like, I can't, straight people exist.
[00:52:16] I have to remind myself sometimes.
[00:52:18] Same.
[00:52:18] But I, I always like think there's like, I just, it doesn't make any sense to me, but
[00:52:24] I always feel like there's, there has to be a way like, like if you meet a person
[00:52:30] regardless of your, what you like, how you identify or whatever, um, or like how you
[00:52:36] think of your orientation, like if you're attracted to someone, you're attracted to
[00:52:40] them.
[00:52:41] And like, I'm just really comfortable with that kind of like flexibility.
[00:52:44] But I also like say that as somebody who like that flexibility is built into my sexuality,
[00:52:48] you know?
[00:52:49] Um, but I, I think we've maybe talked about on the pod before, like there are people who
[00:52:55] identify as straight and then like meet someone of like the same gender when they're 50 and
[00:53:00] they're like, well, this is my person.
[00:53:02] Yeah.
[00:53:02] Um, and like, that's fine, you know, but I don't really know if everybody, um, if that
[00:53:08] actually fits into every orientation, I guess by definition it doesn't, but like experientially
[00:53:14] it doesn't make any sense to me.
[00:53:18] Um, I don't know that we have like a lot of time to get into this, but something we sort
[00:53:23] of talked about a little bit offline that also fits into this is kind of what you were
[00:53:27] getting at when someone, um, realizes or embraces their queer identity later in life.
[00:53:40] Um, and they may already be in a, um, committed or like monogamous relationship.
[00:53:50] Um, and like how complicated that experience is.
[00:53:55] Yeah.
[00:53:57] Yeah.
[00:53:57] I see a lot of, um, a lot of those kinds of questions too, um, from people across, I'm
[00:54:03] in like a lot of like relationship advice groups and podcasts cause I'm just like think
[00:54:07] relationships are so fascinating.
[00:54:10] Um, but there are a lot of people who are like, well, like I love my partner, but like, I've
[00:54:14] just realized that like I could make out with a girl, you know, which I'm like, it's kind
[00:54:18] of funny, but I also like, I get it, you know?
[00:54:20] Um, and I think that is just something that everybody kind of has to navigate for.
[00:54:26] Um, themselves, but it's hard because like we don't have a lot of language for that.
[00:54:32] And like, I think that one of the reasons a lot of people come to fairness later is because
[00:54:35] like we don't have access to it or to models of it or to like the possibility.
[00:54:41] Um, often until we are like in really safe relationships as adults, or we actually get
[00:54:47] to like explore ourselves or in like safer situations, I guess doesn't have to be really
[00:54:50] good.
[00:54:51] Um, but I always want to make space for that because I think like everybody responds to
[00:54:56] that like queer FOMO differently, you know?
[00:55:01] Yeah.
[00:55:02] In some relationships there is space for like, I'm 40 and I just realized I'm queer.
[00:55:08] Can I like try that?
[00:55:10] You know, like, like do we have space in our relationship to open it up a little bit so
[00:55:15] that I can like have this experience?
[00:55:16] Um, and for some people that's cool.
[00:55:20] And for some people it's not.
[00:55:21] And for some people that's not necessary.
[00:55:24] And for some people it feels necessary.
[00:55:26] Um, yeah, I just think it's really complicated and I wish that we had more, um, like I wish
[00:55:33] that we had more queerness early in life.
[00:55:36] Um, because I think that there's, there is a, I don't want to talk about it.
[00:55:41] Like it's like checking off a box or like a bucket list item or anything like that.
[00:55:44] Cause I don't think it is.
[00:55:45] I think it's more about like wanting to know yourself fully and wanting to be yourself fully.
[00:55:50] Um, yeah.
[00:55:54] And I think, like I said, everybody kind of experiences that a little bit differently,
[00:55:58] um, depending on their desire and what's important to them and when they come into their
[00:56:01] identities and stuff like that.
[00:56:03] Um, but I wish that we had more language about it.
[00:56:06] Um, maybe some more space and understanding.
[00:56:08] Yeah.
[00:56:10] Yeah.
[00:56:10] I'm thinking also of the, you know, we've talked about the complicatedness of like coming
[00:56:17] out as an experience, an idea and like, what does that look like for someone who is in
[00:56:26] a quote unquote like straight relationship and like realizes that they're queer?
[00:56:33] Um, and how do you like honor your own identity?
[00:56:40] And I think this is something that, um, when I can think of a couple examples of like celebrities
[00:56:48] who have like come out and everyone is 10, there tends to be a lot of like criticism of
[00:56:55] like, well, sure you can say that now.
[00:56:59] Yeah.
[00:57:00] Yeah.
[00:57:00] Yeah.
[00:57:00] And I've had those icky feelings before.
[00:57:02] I've had to check myself of like, well, you didn't have trauma, which like, I don't know
[00:57:06] that they didn't have trauma.
[00:57:07] And also like, I want to live in a world where queerness is not tied to, is not synonymous
[00:57:11] with trauma.
[00:57:13] Um, but yeah, I think that's like a knee jerk reaction for a lot of people of like, well,
[00:57:17] now you are.
[00:57:18] But I also know like in my personal life, a lot of people who like either had really like
[00:57:24] difficult upbringings or like lived in emotionally unsafe homes who like not until
[00:57:29] um, and sort of like in a safe and supportive environment, could they like explore themselves
[00:57:34] um, and get to know themselves in that way.
[00:57:37] Um, but I still, I think more with celebrities, I have that like, oh, but I have to like check
[00:57:43] myself to be like, that's not fair.
[00:57:44] Yeah.
[00:57:45] You know, but, um, we're kind of wired that way to be like, I earned this and you didn't,
[00:57:50] which is like icky.
[00:57:51] Yeah.
[00:57:52] I hate to even say it, but I think it's true.
[00:57:55] You know, that's like a true experience.
[00:57:56] Definitely.
[00:57:57] I think something that we will unpack more in the future because it's so interesting and
[00:58:02] rich and complicated.
[00:58:04] Just like us.
[00:58:05] Yeah.
[00:58:06] Yeah.
[00:58:07] Yeah.
[00:58:08] I think, um, when I think about like the idea of a happy ending, um, I think about like
[00:58:14] a long-term future and like, I can picture like, what does a happy like relationship or
[00:58:20] life look like for me like now and even like maybe five years down the road.
[00:58:25] Um, but, and we've talked about this a little bit in the past of like wanting more like queer
[00:58:33] models, um, and examples.
[00:58:38] Um, but I think when we think about happy endings, it's like, I don't know any people
[00:58:43] who are like much older and, um, I don't know, like in open relationships or in polyamorous
[00:58:51] relationships.
[00:58:52] I know a lot of people who are in like, um, those kinds of relationships, like who are around
[00:58:57] my age.
[00:58:58] Um, I'm a little bit older, but like I, that can continue.
[00:59:03] But, you know, um, I don't know where I was going with that.
[00:59:08] Models.
[00:59:09] I think maybe models.
[00:59:10] Yeah.
[00:59:11] Yeah.
[00:59:11] Um, yeah.
[00:59:12] So when I think about like picturing a happy ending, um, I feel like the part that like maybe
[00:59:16] we're missing or seeking is like, um, that long-term, like what am I going to do for
[00:59:21] like the rest of my life?
[00:59:22] Which is a big question.
[00:59:24] Um, particularly when we don't have like, I don't know, there's no Disney movie or a bisexual
[00:59:29] person like has a long-term happy ending or any ending.
[00:59:33] Cause I don't think I've ever seen a bisexual character in a Disney movie.
[00:59:36] Have we?
[00:59:37] Not that I can think of, but it exists.
[00:59:40] We can be happy.
[00:59:41] Yeah.
[00:59:41] We get to, we get to create that future.
[00:59:44] Okay.
[00:59:46] So like when you're making plans for, um, dating or like when you're kind of thinking
[00:59:51] about like who you might want to pursue or like whatever, all of those dating questions,
[00:59:56] um, do you like think about the bisexual happy ending question or are you like, I don't know,
[01:00:03] that feels like a lot of pressure, but also like, I guess that is what we do anyway of like,
[01:00:07] do I want to spend time with this person?
[01:00:08] Um, yes and no.
[01:00:12] Like I don't think about it on the micro level of like when I'm interacting with a person,
[01:00:20] um, like how does this person fit into the bisexual happy ending?
[01:00:25] Um, cause I think also part of why this is a thing that like consumes my brain is because
[01:00:30] it's so abstract.
[01:00:32] Yeah.
[01:00:32] Um, and so it's very easy to think about it in the macro sense and much more difficult
[01:00:40] to think about it in the everyday sense.
[01:00:45] Um, because I'm not in a relationship and haven't been for years.
[01:00:52] Um, but I do, I think about it when I think about, you know, what kind of people do I want
[01:01:02] to be dating?
[01:01:04] Yeah, that makes sense.
[01:01:06] That feels like a healthy way to approach it.
[01:01:09] Thank you.
[01:01:10] I try.
[01:01:10] I try.
[01:01:11] Yeah.
[01:01:11] Cause it is such an abstract question, but like in terms of day to day now, like what
[01:01:16] you can do is like pick ingredients that might one day bake the happy ending cake.
[01:01:24] Happy ending cake.
[01:01:25] That's beautiful.
[01:01:26] I said that because I have frozen birthday cake for you.
[01:01:32] So baking the bisexual happy ending cake.
[01:01:35] That's the episode.
[01:01:36] Oh, beautiful.
[01:01:37] Yeah.
[01:01:38] I love it.
[01:01:39] But yeah, we should do like, we should, um, I want to talk more about like in a different
[01:01:44] episode, the, um, like relationship elevator and like poorness and bisexuality.
[01:01:50] I think there's a lot there.
[01:01:51] Yeah.
[01:01:51] But yeah.
[01:01:53] Okay.
[01:01:54] Goodbye.
[01:01:55] Goodbye.
[01:01:56] Goodbye.
[01:01:56] Goodbye.