Queer Style for Everyone

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Bi Pod, a podcast about all things bisexual. I'm Evan and my pronouns are they and them.

[00:00:06] And I'm Christina. My pronouns are she and her.

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[00:01:24] Hi, Evan. Hi, Christina.

[00:01:26] Hi, Shana.

[00:01:27] Today we are talking about queer style and we're doing that with a very special guest.

[00:01:33] Hi, Shana.

[00:01:34] Hi.

[00:01:35] Welcome to the Bi Pod.

[00:01:36] Thank you.

[00:01:38] Do you want to tell the listeners who you are and what your relationship with queerness is?

[00:01:43] Yeah. I'm Shana.

[00:01:45] I live in Colorado and my relationship to queerness.

[00:01:57] I feel like it's something I try to center in my life in a significant and intentional way

[00:02:05] because it's not something that was part of my life for a lot of it.

[00:02:11] I'm almost 45 and I would say I started calling myself bisexual maybe five years ago.

[00:02:21] So it's something that whether it's me feeling like I'm trying to catch up, maybe, but also it

[00:02:29] just feels good to make it something that matters in my life on the regular.

[00:02:38] I love that.

[00:02:41] I'm very excited to have you on.

[00:02:43] You are a listener of the Bi Pod.

[00:02:46] You're familiar with the work.

[00:02:48] A patron.

[00:02:49] A patron even. Wow.

[00:02:51] We love our patrons.

[00:02:52] We love our patrons.

[00:02:54] Yeah. And we're very excited to chat about queer style today.

[00:03:00] Maybe we can start by talking about our own relationships with style.

[00:03:07] Slash queer style. I suppose maybe there's a distinction for some people.

[00:03:13] Evan, do you have any thoughts about your own personal style evolution?

[00:03:17] I mean, I have like a lot of thoughts. I think maybe I will just speak to like recent times

[00:03:24] because otherwise this whole episode will just be me.

[00:03:27] It becomes a memoir.

[00:03:28] Yeah. This is actually an audio book now.

[00:03:32] An improv audio book.

[00:03:33] One I would listen to.

[00:03:35] Yeah.

[00:03:38] Um, I mean, I feel like style probably for most people is an evolving thing.

[00:03:45] Definitely. That has been the case for me.

[00:03:49] Over my adulthood, certainly.

[00:03:52] Um, and I think in the last couple of years that has felt really present.

[00:04:03] I guess maybe it felt really present before, but I have felt perhaps that I have more tools

[00:04:08] to be intentional.

[00:04:10] Um, and more money than I had at various points in time.

[00:04:14] Um, and I think some like interesting things, um, happened in parallel.

[00:04:23] So 2020 is when I started actively exploring not using non-binary pronouns,

[00:04:35] which I guess is the like outward expression of a gender journey that I had always been on.

[00:04:44] Um, and I'm still on, but so I was like maybe conceiving of myself, conceiving of my gender,

[00:04:53] expressing my gender in a new way in a period of time where I like mostly wasn't seeing other people in person.

[00:05:00] Mm-hmm. So I, yeah. Um, so I've been to Christina.

[00:05:06] It was like, no one's really like seeing what I am wearing and maybe in some ways that like took some pressure off.

[00:05:17] But I think there was like, I definitely felt a, I, there was a period of time where I just like wore my sweatpants a lot.

[00:05:25] Um, I guess I still wear my sweatpants a lot, but, um, I think perhaps a lot of us were wearing our sweatpants a lot.

[00:05:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:34] Um, I think I'm still in that phase.

[00:05:36] Yeah.

[00:05:37] In like 2020 and the surrounding time.

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:41] And I feel like, um, I, and I was wearing leggings a lot.

[00:05:49] Actually my like standard outfit was leggings and a muscle tee.

[00:05:54] And the muscle tee was like, like several sizes larger than what was like strictly necessary.

[00:06:02] So I was having this like really baggy shirt that then I cut the arm holes very large.

[00:06:09] And then I would wear like a sports bra or something underneath.

[00:06:12] So that was like my outfit.

[00:06:13] Yeah.

[00:06:13] And I felt like, okay, I've like dialed it in.

[00:06:15] Yeah. And you rocked that fit.

[00:06:17] Thank you.

[00:06:19] Um, occasionally someone at the grocery store would be like, oh, like, did you work out today?

[00:06:22] And I would just be like, yes, even though that was just what I was wearing.

[00:06:27] Um, yeah.

[00:06:29] Then that led to a guy asking if I like did CrossFit or like what was going on.

[00:06:33] And I was like, I walked my dog, which is movement.

[00:06:40] Yeah.

[00:06:40] He was like, oh, so you're like really that whole body exercise.

[00:06:42] He was ready to roll with it, which I appreciate the random man talking to me at the grocery

[00:06:46] store.

[00:06:47] Um, yeah.

[00:06:49] So I was like, oh, cool.

[00:06:50] Maybe I just like wear this all the time.

[00:06:53] But then I got to a point where I was like, actually, um, leggings don't feel affirming

[00:07:00] or like, and then the, I was like, all of my clothing is oversized.

[00:07:05] Is that what I want all the time?

[00:07:06] Like starting to feel like, oh, maybe the things that felt like they were really working

[00:07:10] didn't feel like they were working.

[00:07:16] And I feel like I've like lost the plot.

[00:07:20] Um, you're still making sense from the outside.

[00:07:23] Okay.

[00:07:23] Thanks.

[00:07:24] Thank you for that affirmation.

[00:07:25] Um, I think changes in style are normal, but it was also the first time that I was like

[00:07:34] really explicitly thinking about my gender experience as I was thinking about clothing and trying

[00:07:41] to figure out like what feels affirming.

[00:07:45] I think in the past I just was like in the experience and not like realizing the conditions

[00:07:53] I was operating under.

[00:07:55] And in some ways that awareness is useful.

[00:07:57] And in some ways it's like, oh, but now I'm like thinking about my gender performance

[00:08:01] more than I like, uh, I don't know.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] And so that's, I guess that's what the last couple of years have looked like.

[00:08:10] And then in like November or December of last year, I like went through my closet and I

[00:08:15] was like, I'm just going to pull out like anything that I'm not like super excited about

[00:08:20] or anything that I'm sort of like on the fence.

[00:08:22] So I like took everything out of my closet and I was like, I'm only going to put the things

[00:08:26] that I really want to wear back in my closet.

[00:08:29] And then there was like nothing in my closet.

[00:08:32] I was like, you had like two shirts.

[00:08:34] What do I do now?

[00:08:35] Wow.

[00:08:39] Um, and now that we're in like a shoulder season, so that's also complicated.

[00:08:45] Cause I was like, well, for a while I had a sweatshirt that I liked and it was cold.

[00:08:48] So I just could wear my sweatshirt every day and that was fine.

[00:08:51] And now, um, I get sweaty walking the dog in my sweatshirt.

[00:08:55] Yeah.

[00:08:55] So I like, I'm good on pants actually.

[00:09:00] My, although we'll see now as it gets into summer, if my like shorts, pants, if my bottoms

[00:09:05] situation is, um, still resolved, but I'm still like, what, what is a shirt?

[00:09:13] What are the shirts that I want to wear?

[00:09:15] Um, I have introduced some things, shirts from wild thing that are working for me.

[00:09:22] Um, but I'm, yeah, I'm still figuring that out.

[00:09:27] And also like wanting for a long time, I think partly because of the gender stuff, I was like,

[00:09:35] felt resistant to like caring about clothing.

[00:09:39] I think because I was sort of like caring about clothing is for girls and girls are stupid.

[00:09:52] Um, I wasn't thinking that explicitly, but you know, internalized misogyny.

[00:09:58] Um, and like to care about what I look like is vapid, even though I do care, but I just have

[00:10:06] to pretend like I don't care.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:09] That is the script that you've been given.

[00:10:11] Yeah.

[00:10:11] Good.

[00:10:11] I'm glad you got the notes.

[00:10:13] Yeah.

[00:10:14] Um, and so now I'm like, well, what if I actually like let myself allow, what if I allowed myself

[00:10:20] to think about my clothing as fashion?

[00:10:25] What would that feel like?

[00:10:26] And if I was willing to think about like shape and color and the goal of every outfit

[00:10:32] wasn't to make me look as small as possible.

[00:10:36] Um, and so that's, I'm trying to like embrace that a little more.

[00:10:41] And you have shared some, um, stylists with me, um, which has been, TikTok has definitely

[00:10:50] been a resource.

[00:10:53] Um, but yeah, that's, um, that's my long summary.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] Chapter one of the audio book.

[00:11:04] Yeah.

[00:11:05] Yeah.

[00:11:05] Um, I appreciate hearing you talk about like, um, the, the way that you were approaching

[00:11:11] your own style, um, like having to go through all of the like layers of like society things

[00:11:19] to be like, I care about what I wear because I have to do it every day and it has to be

[00:11:24] functional, but also I'm expressing myself, but also I have to act like it doesn't matter

[00:11:28] because of, um, it's like helpful for me to hear that sort of like spelled out.

[00:11:34] Yeah.

[00:11:35] Um, I relate to you in the sense that 2020, um, completely changed my relationship with

[00:11:42] I suppose everything, but particularly clothing before that.

[00:11:46] Um, I feel like my, most of my clothing, I like bought for a specific setting.

[00:11:53] So I was like, I need clothes that I can teach in.

[00:11:55] I need clothes that I can go to class in.

[00:11:58] I need clothes that I can like go to the gym in or whatever I was doing.

[00:12:01] I need clothes that can go to the bar in.

[00:12:03] Um, and also my like focus with clothing was to like look as skinny as possible.

[00:12:09] Um, and then the pandemic happened.

[00:12:14] Um, and I work from home, so I'm like still in my sweatpants era.

[00:12:17] I'm loving that for me.

[00:12:19] I feel uncomplicated about that at home.

[00:12:22] A thing that I learned about you while, while we were traveling together and you were working

[00:12:27] is that Christina will like put on a top for a meeting.

[00:12:32] She'll be in her pajama bottoms, put on her like meeting shirt.

[00:12:35] And then the second the meeting is over change back into her pajamas.

[00:12:41] Which I feel like is real commitment to the pajamas.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:46] It's giving tourists.

[00:12:47] What can I say?

[00:12:48] It's so funny because also my like work clothes, I'm doing air quotes, are like now because I'm

[00:12:55] like having meetings on zoom.

[00:12:57] It's like shirts that are comfortable and that are like set up in such a way they don't have

[00:13:03] to wear a bra.

[00:13:04] So like they're not, I'm not putting on like a blazer, you know, there's still a pretty

[00:13:08] casual shirt, but I'm like, I need my PE shirt from ninth grade right now.

[00:13:13] It's comfortable.

[00:13:15] It is what it is.

[00:13:16] And I will not apologize for that.

[00:13:18] Didn't we all have daytime pajamas?

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:21] During peak lockdown?

[00:13:24] I mean, this is still me now.

[00:13:25] I definitely had daytime pajamas during lockdown.

[00:13:27] I mean, just like my sweat, like not really.

[00:13:31] I mean, well, but that's because I was wearing athleisure.

[00:13:34] So yeah, that's true.

[00:13:35] Like every time I show up at your house, you're like wearing clothes.

[00:13:39] I mean, like I don't expect you to be naked, but you like have an outfit on and I'm always

[00:13:44] like, wow, Evan really has their shit together.

[00:13:46] You come to my house.

[00:13:47] I am in my little pajama shorts.

[00:13:49] I like don't feel like I can get any like it doesn't feel like the day has started if

[00:13:53] I haven't like put on clothing, even if that clothing is like very minimal.

[00:14:00] Like, for instance, I might go walk the dog not wearing a bra, but then I come inside and

[00:14:06] I'm like, well, if I'm going to do anything else today, I have to put on a bra.

[00:14:10] And when I say bra, I mean a sports bra.

[00:14:12] That's all I wear.

[00:14:13] But but just like something to be like, OK, this is not sleepy time anymore.

[00:14:17] Yes.

[00:14:18] Yeah.

[00:14:18] If I like wear if I wore the clothes that I slept in all day, I would be like.

[00:14:24] Like.

[00:14:25] Am I sick?

[00:14:26] Like what's happening?

[00:14:26] Like this isn't I like don't feel like I can function now.

[00:14:30] Sometimes I just change from the clothes I slept in into like different comfy clothes.

[00:14:34] If it's like today we're sitting on the couch, but I do change.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Interesting.

[00:14:39] Yeah.

[00:14:39] I can't relate.

[00:14:44] But yeah, so 2020 happened.

[00:14:46] I was still teaching, but on Zoom.

[00:14:48] So like my my clothing needs change.

[00:14:51] Also, my body has really changed in the last few years, more or less coinciding with 2020.

[00:14:56] I've like gained a lot of weight in like different ways and having thyroid problems.

[00:15:01] And so then I've had to like buy pretty much all new clothing.

[00:15:05] I have some clothes that still fit from the old days, but the combination of like my body being different, my life being different.

[00:15:14] I've like really had to kind of re-approach clothing.

[00:15:21] And I feel like in a lot of ways because of like just being at home and not being looked at by anybody except for you and my partner, who's very affirming of whatever I want to wear.

[00:15:34] Um, I started kind of exploring like clothes that I just liked, like kind of regardless of their relationship with my body.

[00:15:43] Um, like instead of being focused on like things that were quote unquote flattering.

[00:15:48] I was like, I love a bubble sleeve.

[00:15:50] I don't care.

[00:15:51] Defund flattering.

[00:15:51] Yeah.

[00:15:53] Defund.

[00:15:54] Um, and I was like, I love a bubble sleeve.

[00:15:58] I love a dramatic sleeve.

[00:15:59] I love something shiny.

[00:16:00] Um, like I, um, mostly thrifted, like some really fun styles and stuff.

[00:16:06] Um, but then I got to a point where I'm like, okay, I have like some really beautiful clothes that are like flamboyant and loud and fun.

[00:16:15] Great for like a Harry Styles concert.

[00:16:17] But like my day to day life is not a Harry Styles concert.

[00:16:21] Like most of the time.

[00:16:23] I like still, even now, I often feel like I have nothing to wear.

[00:16:27] I actually just, uh, bought some things from Old Navy where I was like, I don't, I need like basics.

[00:16:33] I need like a tank top that I can just put on and not feel worried about and just, you know, go somewhere.

[00:16:38] Um, but I was like, most of the time I'm working from home.

[00:16:43] So I'm wearing my sweatpants and which I don't want to change.

[00:16:46] And, um, some like comfortable semi-professional shirt.

[00:16:50] Great.

[00:16:51] Have that covered.

[00:16:52] And then if I leave the house, I'm either coming over to Evans to hang out and which you don't care what I wear.

[00:16:59] And, uh, Ginger's going to want to be all over me and I'll be covered in dog hair.

[00:17:03] Um, or I'm going to my other very good friend's house who has a baby who will be spitting up on me and being a baby around me.

[00:17:10] So like my Harry Styles concert clothes, like weren't quite meeting my needs there.

[00:17:15] Um, or I'm going to see my family, which I suppose I could wear those there, but you know.

[00:17:20] Um, so I've had to, I think probably over the last maybe six ish months, I've really been trying to focus on like, what are some like go-to like comfort outfits?

[00:17:31] Like what are some things where I'm like, I can't think about what to wear.

[00:17:34] I'm so sick of doing this.

[00:17:36] I know that if I wear this t-shirt and these jeans, it's going to be fine.

[00:17:40] Um, and that's been helpful.

[00:17:42] I also, I'll link to, um, a couple of the stylists that I follow in the, um, description of this episode.

[00:17:48] But there is one particular, um, queer stylist in New York City.

[00:17:52] Um, her account is, uh, Mac Rose.

[00:17:55] Um, and she does a lot of videos about like, um, a phrase that she uses a lot is like, you look better, bigger.

[00:18:02] Like what if you release, like having to have a cinched waist or like whatever that shape looks like to you.

[00:18:08] Or like, what if clothing does have a gender, but we've made that up.

[00:18:12] And so now we can play with it.

[00:18:13] Um, and I found her approach to styling and even just like seeing her put together outfits.

[00:18:17] Her style is not really anything like my style, but I get a lot out of it.

[00:18:23] I think from her content.

[00:18:25] Um, it's also like thinking more about like what I want out of my clothing.

[00:18:31] Um, I'm thinking about clothing specifically, but also like I'm personally wears makeup.

[00:18:35] Not today, but, um, I enjoy doing my makeup and I enjoy like expressing myself in that way.

[00:18:41] Um, I've been dying my hair red for eight years and I, nine years, I'm 29 now.

[00:18:48] Um, and I don't really plan to ever stop doing that.

[00:18:50] Um, I like how it makes me feel.

[00:18:52] I like what it communicates to the world.

[00:18:54] Um, but just like thinking about like, what does it mean to me?

[00:18:58] What am I getting out of style?

[00:19:01] Um, and like leaning into the things that make me feel good about like making choices about

[00:19:09] how I present myself to the world.

[00:19:11] We definitely have to talk about hair.

[00:19:13] We do have to talk about hair.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:15] Shauna, do you want to share about your style experience?

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:20] Growing up, I definitely had the aspirational pants or the dress or the, if you can get

[00:19:33] to where that fits.

[00:19:36] Yeah.

[00:19:37] That will feel good.

[00:19:38] Relatable.

[00:19:39] Yes.

[00:19:40] And it has taken me a long time to realize that elastic waistbands and jersey material are

[00:19:52] my best friend and they make me feel good.

[00:19:56] And I love a wide leg pant, which I was always told as a person in a larger body would just

[00:20:05] make you look bigger, but okay.

[00:20:10] Like, why not?

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:13] That doesn't feel bad to me anymore in a way that I think most of us are taught that

[00:20:19] it should feel bad.

[00:20:25] Um, I always grew up wearing very frilly dresses.

[00:20:31] That was sort of what I was put in, you know, myself, my sister, my cousin always had kind

[00:20:36] of matching Easter hats and things like that as I've gotten older and sort of thinking about

[00:20:46] how I want to sort of make my outsides match.

[00:20:51] And I've realized part of what I feel on the inside.

[00:20:55] Like, I still like frilly dresses in a different way, but I've realized part of what I like and

[00:21:05] that we'll talk about the hair.

[00:21:07] But part of what I like is having a distinctly, like, not super feminine haircut with, like,

[00:21:16] very feminine clothing sometimes.

[00:21:18] You know, I like that it doesn't all match.

[00:21:23] You know, I like that incongruity kind of being on the outside.

[00:21:27] Um, and I, I also like wide leg pants and soft t-shirts and, you know, textures matter more

[00:21:39] to me, maybe then specific silhouettes or things that we should wear.

[00:21:48] And some of that too has come from engaging with, um, plus size style people on social media.

[00:21:56] I mean, that really gave me a way to see something different than what I was taught and what I was

[00:22:03] doing.

[00:22:03] And something that's a little frustrating to think about is financial, how financial accessibility

[00:22:11] plays into it.

[00:22:13] Because when I couldn't afford to pay full price for something that will actually fit me, because

[00:22:23] thrifting is really hard or much harder to do in, you know, a larger body sometimes, you

[00:22:32] know, the, the resources just, yeah, aren't there as much that until I could actually afford

[00:22:37] to be like, I like that shirt.

[00:22:39] I like those pants.

[00:22:40] I can pay for it when it's not on sale.

[00:22:42] Um, that being able to do that has let me match the outside to what's inside a lot more

[00:22:52] than I could before.

[00:22:55] And same thing with getting my haircut, you know, every six weeks that is.

[00:23:01] There's, there's a cost to that, but it's one of those things where if I had to eat ramen

[00:23:06] every day for a month so I could get my haircut every, you know, six weeks that that's what

[00:23:11] I would do now.

[00:23:12] Cause I, I feel, I feel the most like myself when I walk out of the salon at, when I walk

[00:23:22] out of the salon after I get my haircut and that feeling before I had it, I didn't know

[00:23:27] how much that was worth.

[00:23:30] Yeah.

[00:23:31] This is not an advice podcast, but I just really have to say, if anyone is telling you

[00:23:35] that you like shouldn't wear a thing that you are like wanting to wear, don't listen

[00:23:39] to that person.

[00:23:40] They are wrong.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] Actually send us a picture of your outfit and be like, I want to wear this and we will

[00:23:46] hype you up.

[00:23:47] Yeah.

[00:23:47] Be like, yes, as you should.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] It's you're looking great.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:51] In hearing you name Shauna, like wanting to wear wide leg pants and that being a thing

[00:23:55] that you were like not supposed to wear.

[00:23:57] I think I've maybe talked about on the show, um, in college, some friends like discouraged

[00:24:04] me from wearing like high waisted pants and were very like high waisted, like they didn't

[00:24:14] say like you can't wear them because you're fat.

[00:24:17] But I think, and I think they were coming from a good, like, I think they were trying

[00:24:21] to be supportive, but they were very, yeah, it was very sort of like high waisted things

[00:24:26] are only for like very skinny people with like flat stomachs.

[00:24:31] And, um, I will die in high waisted.

[00:24:34] Like you can pry them off of my cold dead body.

[00:24:38] Like I'm going to be wearing high waisted bottoms forever.

[00:24:41] I'm wearing high waisted yoga shorts right now.

[00:24:44] Um, you'll never catch me in a mid rise.

[00:24:46] Never.

[00:24:47] No.

[00:24:48] Like, uh.

[00:24:49] You won't have to peel them off of my body because they're stretchy too.

[00:24:55] So they'll just come right off.

[00:24:56] Oh, absolutely.

[00:24:57] Yeah.

[00:24:57] Evan, you interest.

[00:24:58] And like this works for you, but I know that you have a thing for non-stretch denim and

[00:25:04] I just simply could never.

[00:25:05] I find the fit better.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:08] Um, stretchy denim would not stay up on me.

[00:25:11] I think it's something that some of it might be proportions because I do have like a smaller

[00:25:17] waist than behind.

[00:25:21] Um, so I would like stretchy things.

[00:25:24] I would be like, these are, these won't stay up.

[00:25:26] Interesting.

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:28] No.

[00:25:29] Stretchy for me.

[00:25:30] Till the day I die.

[00:25:31] Yeah.

[00:25:32] Personally.

[00:25:34] Giving up skinny jeans was great.

[00:25:35] That's the thing I did recently.

[00:25:36] I was like, why am I doing this to myself?

[00:25:39] I kind of, I'm on a jeans journey right now.

[00:25:41] I'm wearing a pair of jeans that I actually thrifted my first time thrifting a pair of jeans

[00:25:45] that fit me.

[00:25:46] Wow.

[00:25:47] Because, um, I too have a behind worth bragging about.

[00:25:50] Um, and so at the thrift, I'm always like, you know what?

[00:25:54] I'm not even going to look, but I, um, I was determined once when I was at a store

[00:26:00] where they like organize things pretty well.

[00:26:02] So I was like, okay, at least I can like just be looking in the size section.

[00:26:05] That'll make sense for me.

[00:26:06] And there may be a little bit shorter than I would like.

[00:26:08] Cause I'm a very tall person.

[00:26:10] Um, but they're like stretchy.

[00:26:11] They're worn in every time I put them on.

[00:26:13] I'm like, I cannot believe that.

[00:26:15] Like I didn't pick these out for myself.

[00:26:17] Like brand new.

[00:26:19] Um, but I've been on a jeans journey.

[00:26:22] Cause I still, honestly, I still really like skinny jeans.

[00:26:24] I kind of like how they look cause I like my calves and I want people to know that I

[00:26:27] have good calves.

[00:26:28] Like I work on those, you know?

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:30] Um, but then also sometimes, and they're always stretchy.

[00:26:32] So they're like comfortable.

[00:26:33] Um, but then when I wear my like super baggy wide leg jeans.

[00:26:36] Which I'm like still getting comfortable with.

[00:26:37] I'm like, this is also a vibe.

[00:26:39] I enjoy.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] Yeah.

[00:26:42] The idea of not one lane is definitely something that I've embraced in the last few years.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:51] Because like, um, oh, Daniel Craig in glass onion, that kind of like linen wide leg.

[00:27:00] That's definitely a vibe.

[00:27:02] But when I saw that, I was like, I want those outfits.

[00:27:05] And it was like, I also love the dresses and I love the pants, but I'm like, I need a suit.

[00:27:10] No.

[00:27:12] No.

[00:27:12] Yeah.

[00:27:13] I have had a lot of fun with, um, I don't know, degendering my style inspiration.

[00:27:21] So I think I definitely talked in a episode before.

[00:27:26] I don't remember which one it was.

[00:27:27] If you remember, let me know about the picture of Ben Barnes in the like backwards baseball

[00:27:33] cap and a white t-shirt.

[00:27:34] And I was like that, that's it.

[00:27:36] That's the, that's the drum set.

[00:27:38] Yes.

[00:27:39] I don't remember that, which episode, but I do remember that conversation.

[00:27:42] Listeners, let us know.

[00:27:43] Um, yeah, it might've been the attraction episode.

[00:27:48] Cause I might've been talking about like wanting to be perceived.

[00:27:50] I think it was.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:52] Um, but yeah, just being like,

[00:27:54] Thank you, Shauna, for remembering.

[00:27:55] Was he in your slideshow?

[00:27:57] He was in my slideshow, but that, I don't.

[00:28:00] That was a different.

[00:28:01] Yes.

[00:28:01] I think that was separate.

[00:28:02] That's true.

[00:28:03] He, uh, he has a presence on this show.

[00:28:05] Yes.

[00:28:06] Um, asperine.

[00:28:08] Operational friend of the show, Ben Barnes.

[00:28:11] Um, but yeah, just like, um, being willing to just be like, I like this thing regardless

[00:28:19] of who is wearing it.

[00:28:22] Yeah.

[00:28:22] Um, and sometimes that requires some thinking about like, okay, well, what is it like?

[00:28:29] Like, because also Ben Barnes and I different shaped people.

[00:28:35] Um, so there is like an invitation then to think about like, okay, well, what is it that

[00:28:39] I like actually want?

[00:28:40] And I think that's actually more fun than just the like, I'm going to look at what someone

[00:28:46] is wearing on Pinterest and I'm going to buy that exact outfit.

[00:28:49] Yeah.

[00:28:50] Because I feel like that often like doesn't really work.

[00:28:53] Particularly if you are not like a straight sized person.

[00:28:58] And we're all gay sized over here.

[00:29:00] Exactly.

[00:29:02] But yeah, just doing some, it's fun to be like, why do I like this?

[00:29:07] And what could I do so that I could also have this?

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:11] I think it's also, it's like equally as helpful to like look at style inspiration and identify

[00:29:16] things that you don't like.

[00:29:18] Um, because I think a, that helps you see like, okay, I don't like this part of the outfit,

[00:29:24] but I like the top or like whatever it is.

[00:29:26] Um, and then also like, um, just gives you a chance to like have some strong opinions,

[00:29:33] you know, about the things that you like.

[00:29:36] And unsurprisingly, my journey to liking a wide variety of things has been directly related

[00:29:44] to my journey of queerness because I didn't give myself permission to like who I liked

[00:29:52] to wear what I wanted.

[00:29:53] It's all like tied together in my brain.

[00:29:56] At least for me it is.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:58] That's very relatable.

[00:29:59] I had a hard time giving myself permission for a lot of things.

[00:30:04] I also feel like I have noticed in myself this real like cycle of, um, as I became more comfortable

[00:30:16] with myself and more comfortable in my identity, I got more comfortable with my body, which made

[00:30:25] me more willing to like try different things with my clothes and then finding clothes that

[00:30:33] I liked made me feel more confident in my body, which made me feel more confident in my identity

[00:30:39] and like all of these things sort of like feeding into each other in a way that's really nice.

[00:30:45] Yeah.

[00:30:45] That makes sense.

[00:30:46] The first time I dyed my hair, I think I was staying at my parents' house for some reason.

[00:30:49] I don't remember why.

[00:30:50] My mom like came home and I like had the dye in my hair and I was like, it's too late.

[00:30:55] It's red.

[00:30:56] Like there's nothing you can do about it now.

[00:30:58] Um, and I love having red hair.

[00:31:01] I have gotten my eyebrows tattooed red.

[00:31:03] Like I'm committed.

[00:31:04] It is what it is.

[00:31:05] Um, I'm never going to be blonde again.

[00:31:07] It just simply did not sue me.

[00:31:09] Um, and occasionally I think mostly like family members will make comments.

[00:31:13] Um, like I think we have this, uh, idea that like it's bad to do things for attention.

[00:31:21] And I see people apply that to me frequently and I'm like, I don't dye my hair red for attention,

[00:31:27] but it would be fine if I did.

[00:31:29] We're like humans.

[00:31:30] It's like totally fine to want people to notice you, um, and to see you.

[00:31:35] Um, and even with wearing like giant sleeves or like whatever.

[00:31:40] Um, or I have these docs that I love.

[00:31:42] I don't know if I've talked about them on the show before.

[00:31:45] They're, um, these Doc Martin boots that my partner got for me many years ago.

[00:31:49] Um, they're like very mermaidy.

[00:31:52] They're like a teal.

[00:31:53] It's, it's leather, but it's like very treated.

[00:31:55] Um, so it's like an iridescent turquoise.

[00:31:58] I love them so much.

[00:32:00] Um, and I fell in love with them when I was in grad school and I could not afford them.

[00:32:05] So I just like kept looking at them.

[00:32:07] And then by the time I was like, okay, like I've wanted them for a year.

[00:32:10] I've saved up.

[00:32:10] I can get them.

[00:32:11] Um, they were out of my size.

[00:32:13] So I was like, well, I guess it's passing by.

[00:32:15] So then my boyfriend on like page 12 of Google.

[00:32:19] Found a brick and mortar store on the other side of the country that still had a pair.

[00:32:23] And he called them and they mailed, they mailed them to him.

[00:32:26] Wow.

[00:32:27] And I was like, this is the one.

[00:32:28] This is the man.

[00:32:30] Um, but I love those shoes so much.

[00:32:32] I, I don't wear them as much now because I like hate wearing shoes.

[00:32:34] It's not about those specific shoes.

[00:32:36] I just love to be in sandals.

[00:32:37] Christina wears flip flops.

[00:32:39] In all climates.

[00:32:40] In all climates.

[00:32:41] In all conditions.

[00:32:42] Um, yeah.

[00:32:44] Plantar fasciitis be damned.

[00:32:46] I don't care.

[00:32:46] Um, but I would wear them when they like didn't match the outfit.

[00:32:50] Like it was just very liberating.

[00:32:51] Be like, I love these shoes.

[00:32:52] And so therefore they go with my clothes because I want to wear them.

[00:32:56] Um, and a lot of people, again, mostly in my family, not like friends.

[00:33:01] Um, would like make comments about them.

[00:33:04] And I was like, yeah, I love these shoes.

[00:33:06] Is it hurting you?

[00:33:07] And so what if people are looking at them?

[00:33:09] They're great shoes.

[00:33:10] They should look at them.

[00:33:12] Like there's no, this is entirely morally neutral.

[00:33:14] I don't care.

[00:33:16] Um, but I think that that like reminds me of what you were saying earlier, Evan, about

[00:33:19] the like, I'm not supposed to care about what I wear.

[00:33:23] Um, even though like no matter what your relationship to clothing is, you are, or like appearance

[00:33:29] in general, you are putting something on your body.

[00:33:32] Yeah.

[00:33:33] Or not putting something on your body every day.

[00:33:36] Um, like you still have to make choices regardless of how you feel about it, I guess.

[00:33:41] Um, and it's liberating for me to be like, yeah, I, I think about things like that.

[00:33:47] Well, and also if you dress in a way that other people perceive as trying not to be noticed,

[00:33:52] they will also have opinions about that.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:54] So like I still wear a lot of black.

[00:33:58] Um, I am introducing like more color, but, um, in the past I wore like primarily black

[00:34:05] and grays and like maybe the occasional dark blue.

[00:34:10] And my mom who like loves bright colors, like anytime I see something that's in like a fluorescent

[00:34:17] orange, I'm like, Angie would love that.

[00:34:20] Um, which is just like, I love that for her.

[00:34:25] It's not for me.

[00:34:27] So when you see like people doing road work and wearing the neon vest, you're like Angie would

[00:34:32] want that?

[00:34:37] Maybe not quite the safety gear, but, um, yeah, that and like flowy, almost muumuu like dresses.

[00:34:50] She really likes those as well.

[00:34:51] And I, again, I love that for her.

[00:34:53] Neither of those things are like for me.

[00:34:56] Um, but I think she was really worried that like me wearing black was that that like meant

[00:35:07] something other than just that it's practical because the things always match.

[00:35:12] Yeah.

[00:35:13] Um, and that that's like what I wanted to be wearing.

[00:35:16] So there were times where she'd sort of asked me like, well, is this because like, are you

[00:35:20] doing this because like black is supposed to be like more thinning because like you don't

[00:35:24] have to do that or like, I think it was coming from a good place.

[00:35:27] You're trying to not stand out.

[00:35:28] Yeah.

[00:35:28] Like she was worried that I like didn't want people to look at me and like maybe sometimes,

[00:35:34] but also it's just cause that's what I felt like wearing.

[00:35:37] Like, yeah, that's the thing is that like everything means something, even if it like doesn't mean

[00:35:42] anything to you.

[00:35:44] Um, like clothes are, and I'm thinking about clothes, but also general, like style in general,

[00:35:49] like the way that we style ourselves is so caught up in gender, in culture, in race and like

[00:35:58] in class.

[00:35:59] Um, and like every like sort of important structure that we exist under.

[00:36:05] Um, and we're sort of expected to just like figure it out and like not, uh, not have a

[00:36:13] crisis about it.

[00:36:13] Um, Christina, I'm curious as a person who is pretty femme, um, how you think about gender

[00:36:27] and style and like, like Shauna and I have both talked about like, you know, menswear

[00:36:35] influences, but I'm interested, like, do you ever have any moments like that?

[00:36:39] Or do you like, what comes up?

[00:36:42] What's going on for you?

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:44] Sometimes, um, I definitely, I like to communicate like a particular sort of femininity.

[00:36:52] Um, and I think about the context that I'm in.

[00:36:56] Um, and I have recently, like I bought my boyfriend this jacket and I was like, that's

[00:37:05] a good jacket.

[00:37:05] I'm going to buy one for myself.

[00:37:07] And I did.

[00:37:08] And now we both have the same jacket.

[00:37:09] It's very funny.

[00:37:10] A couple of times we have, uh, almost worn them at the same time.

[00:37:14] And then he's like, you have to change.

[00:37:15] No, we're not doing this.

[00:37:18] Um, and I think like, I feel pretty free to wear men's clothing when I feel like it.

[00:37:28] It doesn't always give me the experience I'm looking for.

[00:37:32] Um, because, um, I'm a girl.

[00:37:36] And as you said before, I'm just kidding.

[00:37:39] Um, but I do like, I just actually recently thrifted this like button up, um, shirt.

[00:37:45] Uh, that's a men's shirt that has all these like little postcards of sunset pictures on

[00:37:49] it.

[00:37:50] And I was like, I was like, Oh, like Sydney, my boyfriend, you like, you would like this

[00:37:54] shirt.

[00:37:54] And he was like, I don't like it.

[00:37:55] And I was like, well, I like it.

[00:37:57] I guess I'll buy it for myself.

[00:37:58] And then when we got home, I tried it on.

[00:38:00] He was like, that is a good shirt.

[00:38:01] And I was like, well, I bought it too bad.

[00:38:05] Not for you.

[00:38:07] Um, but I like things with like when I'm, when I'm looking for clothes for style rather

[00:38:14] than function, I do like interesting shapes.

[00:38:16] Like I like, like a, a peplum or like a puffy sleeve or like a, a waist definition or something.

[00:38:24] And I feel like you don't find that in men's clothing as often.

[00:38:27] Um, so I think for that sort of like functional reason, I'm usually looking at quote unquote

[00:38:32] women's clothing.

[00:38:33] Um, but I have some jumpsuits that sort of feel like utilitarian, um, in a genderless way

[00:38:41] that I like, um, we, Evan and I, a couple of years ago were, um, Barbie's convertible

[00:38:48] repair shop mechanics, um, in our jumpsuits.

[00:38:52] And, um, I had a pink jumpsuit, but it just like, wasn't working for me that day.

[00:38:56] So I wore a different jumpsuit that is like relatively genderless.

[00:38:59] And then I like had my little iron on Barbie patch and I like found my boyfriend's wrench

[00:39:04] and like put it on my belt as if I knew how to use a tool.

[00:39:07] Um, and I was like, it was fun.

[00:39:10] It was a fun costume.

[00:39:12] Um, so I do sort of like, I enjoy playing in that, but it doesn't usually give me the

[00:39:18] experience I'm looking for.

[00:39:20] Um, there are some things like the jacket that I was talking about.

[00:39:23] I like it because it's like a flannel-y kind of jacket.

[00:39:26] It's like women's flannels.

[00:39:27] They're just not cutting it for me.

[00:39:28] They're too thin.

[00:39:32] Um, but usually I'm looking for like a different shape, I guess.

[00:39:35] Also, I way prefer men's socks.

[00:39:37] I have almost no women's socks.

[00:39:39] That's the thing that really shouldn't be all that gendered.

[00:39:42] But I just find I'm like, I'm sliding around.

[00:39:44] I can't do this.

[00:39:45] A men's dress sock is perfect for my needs.

[00:39:47] Thank you.

[00:39:48] Hmm.

[00:39:49] Um, I know that you wanted to share about your haircut experience with deciding to cut

[00:39:54] your hair.

[00:39:54] Did you want to share more about that?

[00:39:55] So, a few years ago, I don't remember exactly when I was able to speak out loud the words,

[00:40:05] I want my outsides to match my insides.

[00:40:07] I didn't know what that actually...

[00:40:10] It was on retreat.

[00:40:11] Yes.

[00:40:12] I don't remember which one or how long ago.

[00:40:14] It was a few years.

[00:40:16] I think it was in, um...

[00:40:17] North Carolina.

[00:40:18] Yeah.

[00:40:18] When we were in Asheville.

[00:40:19] Yeah.

[00:40:19] Which was fall of 2021.

[00:40:22] Yes.

[00:40:23] Wow.

[00:40:24] Time.

[00:40:25] That was like my big takeaway from theirs.

[00:40:27] I want my outsides to match my insides.

[00:40:29] And I was like, I think I want to get my hair cut.

[00:40:33] But what would that look like?

[00:40:34] So, I found some pictures and saved them.

[00:40:38] And just literally went and looked back at them every couple of months to be like, which

[00:40:42] one, which one?

[00:40:43] I got input from other people.

[00:40:48] Like, oh, because my hair was halfway down my back before.

[00:40:53] And now, like, I can't really even grab the size with my fingers.

[00:40:59] Just to give some non-visual context maybe to people who can't see me trying to grab my hair.

[00:41:09] And a lot of the feedback I got was like, go for the shoulder length.

[00:41:13] Go for the...

[00:41:14] Because you can always cut it more.

[00:41:16] And it took me a year after I saved those pictures before I was like, nope.

[00:41:21] Chop it off.

[00:41:22] It's gone.

[00:41:23] That's what it needed.

[00:41:24] I mean, it just...

[00:41:25] I was so certain at that moment.

[00:41:27] Like, that's what it needed to be to feel closer to myself.

[00:41:31] Um, and I spent some time finding an explicitly queer salon near where I live to get my haircut.

[00:41:44] Because even if I could have gone to a barbershop to get it, it was something that...

[00:41:55] It's hard to put into words why it felt important.

[00:41:57] But it felt important.

[00:41:59] And that was enough of a reason for me to seek that out.

[00:42:05] Yeah.

[00:42:05] Um, and...

[00:42:07] You know, I've stuck with, you know, that person and followed them around to, you know, now their own place.

[00:42:15] And it just...

[00:42:19] When I walk out and my hair is done, you know, it's like the shortest it can be on the sides.

[00:42:25] It's the closest I feel to myself on the outside.

[00:42:30] Um, yeah.

[00:42:33] Yeah.

[00:42:34] And so that's...

[00:42:36] It's just been...

[00:42:38] A great experience.

[00:42:39] And if I hadn't liked it, I could have let it grow out.

[00:42:42] But it felt important for me to take the deeper plunge and to not do a half measure.

[00:42:51] Because how many times in our lives do we do a half measure?

[00:42:54] Do we, you know, buy something that we like but maybe in a size that technically fits but isn't actually comfortable?

[00:43:03] Oh, God.

[00:43:06] Yes.

[00:43:07] Yeah.

[00:43:07] The closet purge I have gone through over the past few years has seen me get rid of lots of things that are okay but not good.

[00:43:16] And I decided that I was worth the best version of whatever thing I wanted.

[00:43:24] The haircut, the pants, the shirts.

[00:43:29] And I mean, the best version is also, you know, my $8 Target t-shirts along with, you know, it's a combination of all the things.

[00:43:40] But it's the things that make me feel like the outside and inside kind of match up where you don't feel like they're very separated.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] And that makes a big difference, you know, in quality of life and how we feel.

[00:43:55] And I also think like the path we take to our style is really significant.

[00:44:00] It makes a lot of sense to me that you wanted to like seek specifically a queer hairstylist and a queer space to like make that change in because you weren't looking for like, I don't know, a man's haircut.

[00:44:13] Like even if they could maybe like achieve something similar at a barbershop.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:17] That wasn't what you were looking for.

[00:44:19] My hairstylist is also queer and it's excellent.

[00:44:23] And it makes me feel I didn't really realize this until I started seeing him.

[00:44:30] But I had some like weird dread about getting my haircut.

[00:44:33] Like I just feel like a chore.

[00:44:35] But now I'm like, oh, like, let's see what Sebastian wants to do this.

[00:44:40] And it's like fun.

[00:44:41] And like, I also feel comfortable like trying.

[00:44:45] I mean, I more or less have the same haircut that I've had since probably the eighth grade.

[00:44:51] Some variants a little bit.

[00:44:52] But I like feel more comfortable.

[00:44:54] Like I tried a middle part for a while, you know, because I'm like I'm in a space where this person is not trying to be like this is what girls are supposed to do.

[00:45:02] And so therefore I will do this for you.

[00:45:04] It's like it just feels like a queer experience.

[00:45:08] And I also I haven't even made like a significant change.

[00:45:11] Yeah.

[00:45:11] But it really has affected the experience.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:15] Yeah.

[00:45:16] It's interesting how picking those things intentionally to center queerness in the very sort of small and quiet ways, even if it doesn't change what other people see.

[00:45:26] It has significantly changed my experience of being in my body and in the world.

[00:45:31] Yeah.

[00:45:32] Yeah.

[00:45:33] And that really resonates with me.

[00:45:35] As somebody who like styles themselves in the gender that people ascribe to me, I sometimes I'm like, I wish I looked more queer, but I don't quite know.

[00:45:47] I don't know what that would mean, because I'm like, I don't really want to have short hair.

[00:45:53] I don't like I wear men's clothing occasionally, but that's like also not the experience I'm looking for.

[00:45:59] I'm like doing a graphic tee for every day of the week that just says like, I'm not a straight person.

[00:46:03] Leave me alone.

[00:46:06] Like, would that be it?

[00:46:08] You can put that in our future future merch.

[00:46:10] Oh, yes.

[00:46:11] Yes.

[00:46:12] I'm not a straight person.

[00:46:13] Leave me alone.

[00:46:13] Can you please?

[00:46:14] I will wear that every day.

[00:46:17] And also like being in a relationship with a man and like being seen as straight in many contexts.

[00:46:24] I'm often like I want people to know that I'm clear.

[00:46:28] I want to signal that in a way.

[00:46:29] But like the options that I that feel like easily accessible, I don't really want.

[00:46:34] Like, that's not what I'm looking to do.

[00:46:37] So and so I'm like, OK, I'm just going to be hyper femme and maybe that like we'll tell the people what they need to know.

[00:46:43] I don't know.

[00:46:45] But that is something that I would I don't know that I like struggle with it, but I think about it.

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:50] A lot because I'm just not sure how to achieve the thing that I want.

[00:46:55] Have you ever like, you know, get over that pesky fear of needles?

[00:46:57] I think we could get you some really cute femme tattoos that would do the job.

[00:47:01] Yeah.

[00:47:02] I am very afraid of you.

[00:47:03] I love a temporary tattoo.

[00:47:08] Yeah.

[00:47:09] That could help.

[00:47:10] But also straight people have tattoos now.

[00:47:13] Straight people have different haircuts.

[00:47:15] We should talk about that.

[00:47:16] We don't have time.

[00:47:18] We don't have time.

[00:47:20] We should talk about that.

[00:47:22] Yeah.

[00:47:23] That'll have to be a future episode.

[00:47:25] Great.

[00:47:26] Yeah.

[00:47:27] I feel like we're entitled to like a couple episodes a year of complaining about straight people.

[00:47:31] I mean, yeah.

[00:47:33] That's coming in the future.

[00:47:33] Yeah.

[00:47:35] You do what you want.

[00:47:37] We can.

[00:47:39] To go along with my theme of this is not an advice show, but here's some advice.

[00:47:44] Do either of you have any advice that you would like to share as it relates to style, aesthetics,

[00:47:53] fashion?

[00:47:55] Yeah.

[00:47:56] Yeah.

[00:47:57] I think for me, finding.

[00:48:01] Well, first of all, like being willing to say to myself, like, I want my I want to think about my style.

[00:48:09] I want to define what I'm looking to achieve.

[00:48:12] Like, this is an important thing.

[00:48:13] It's allowed to be important, even though every cultural force says you have to act like you're too cool to care what you're wearing.

[00:48:21] That was a big liberating step.

[00:48:24] And also, like seeking people who do this professionally or like who who have been practiced in thinking about style, who are queer has been very helpful.

[00:48:36] So, again, I'll link to a few stylists that I personally follow in the description.

[00:48:44] But I I've never been somebody who could like go on Pinterest and find style inspo because I was like, this is all just not what I'm looking for.

[00:48:53] But like seeing a queer person break down the process of like getting dressed, of styling yourself or whatever, that has been very helpful and has helped me like shown me a new path towards getting myself together and presenting myself to the world rather than like, here's how to dress for your body type or whatever.

[00:49:13] Um, that has been really refreshing and helpful.

[00:49:15] So do that.

[00:49:17] Great.

[00:49:19] That there is no finish line when it comes to figuring out what your style is, that it can change or not as often as you want or need it to.

[00:49:34] You know, there's things I got two years ago that felt amazing and now just feel a few degrees off.

[00:49:45] Just don't feel quite right.

[00:49:47] And I'm still holding on to them.

[00:49:50] Um, so as advice to myself, when I go home, I'm going to now like move them out of my closet because.

[00:49:58] You know, we should always have permission to change what feels good.

[00:50:04] Yeah.

[00:50:05] And I also want to name like something that I have struggled with before is like feeling like the consumerism of it all.

[00:50:11] Um, and like a, you have to wear clothes in this society.

[00:50:15] So like you're not a bad person for clothing yourself, whatever you need to do.

[00:50:20] Um, I personally like I'm pretty conscious about not buying clothes from brands like Shein and things like that.

[00:50:28] But also like if that's what works for you and is affordable, again, you know, we're all doing what we can.

[00:50:35] Um, but finding like local sustainable ways to, uh, give your clothes or sell your clothes when you don't want them anymore, when they're not working for anymore.

[00:50:45] It's really helped me.

[00:50:47] Um, obviously there's, you know, thrifts you can drop things off at, but there's also, um, there's buy, sell trades.

[00:50:53] There's women shelters.

[00:50:54] I take my clothes too often.

[00:50:56] Um, but like putting in a little bit of extra effort to like find a place where I feel like my clothes will actually be like used and worn again has like been very helpful for me.

[00:51:06] Um, and just making sure that I feel good about that.

[00:51:11] And also like buying clothes, either thrifting or like on Poshmark, um, has been fun because again, I feel like it's, you know, it's been fun to be able to shop secondhand when possible.

[00:51:21] But again, it's simply not always possible and one person cannot save the world.

[00:51:27] Um, but I just wanted to sort of name that in this conversation.

[00:51:30] Yeah.

[00:51:31] Hmm.

[00:51:32] Um, I'm currently wearing a shirt that I think I got in 2019.

[00:51:37] It might've been earlier than that.

[00:51:39] I've had it for a while.

[00:51:43] Um, and, uh, so I think I would offer like, if there is something that is working for you, wear that shit until you can't wear it anymore.

[00:51:50] Like, um, yeah.

[00:51:53] If I love something, I'm wearing it into the ground.

[00:51:54] Yeah.

[00:51:55] Yeah.

[00:51:55] And also like, don't, uh, be afraid to, I don't know, remix it if that is what, you know, um, you like this shirt, but the length isn't right.

[00:52:08] Like crop it, um, cut off the sleeves.

[00:52:10] Like I sometimes am hesitant to partake in various DIY projects because I'm like, what if I mess it up?

[00:52:18] But it's like, well, if I crop this shirt too short, I guess I'll get rid of it.

[00:52:25] But I didn't really want to wear it before I cropped it.

[00:52:27] So like, what is the loss here?

[00:52:29] Like maybe I'll get it to, and also there's some, like you learn with like experimentation.

[00:52:38] Um, I would also say you named this Christina, but it's been more helpful to me to hear people talk about their process with their own style.

[00:52:51] Then like, for instance, every time I'm like searching for like non-binary fashion keywords, it's not helpful to me.

[00:52:59] It actually often makes me feel bad.

[00:53:03] Um, but watching a stylist talk about like how they built an outfit can give me like ideas.

[00:53:12] Um, it's also fun to see people figuring out their style.

[00:53:18] Um, so for instance, I'll link to, um, a guy that I just found who is like reinventing his style, um, based on like fashion tips from mask lesbians.

[00:53:31] Oh yes.

[00:53:31] And it was just like really great.

[00:53:33] And you can, yeah.

[00:53:34] Um, and his outfits look excellent.

[00:53:37] And he was like, I am standing on the shoulders of like just these most generous tender butches.

[00:53:44] Like, yeah, he's like, this is me pre-algorithm serving me massively.

[00:53:51] Yeah.

[00:53:52] Um, and that's like really cool and fun and invites me to think about how can I make my clothing cool and fun and less, I don't know, like a test or something.

[00:54:07] Yeah.

[00:54:07] Yeah.

[00:54:08] And similar to what you said, Shauna, about like it's, there's not a finish line.

[00:54:11] I think it's like helpful if you can think about style as a process and seek resources with that mindset rather than like I need to see the finished outfit and then I have to go copy that.

[00:54:21] Yeah.

[00:54:21] Or whatever it is like that is more useful.

[00:54:23] Something that I am working on is trying to be more willing to like try something that I'm not sure will work.

[00:54:32] Um, so I tried like layering some flannels with like crew neck sweatshirts and I was like, you know, I'm kind of into it.

[00:54:41] Um, and that's like not a thing I would like, I wouldn't, I would not have put those clothes, those things together had I not been like, what if I tried to wear the things in my closet in a different way?

[00:54:53] Yeah.

[00:54:54] Um, and yeah, that has been fun and useful.

[00:55:02] Um, and then my other thing would be, uh, good enough is probably not good.

[00:55:10] Yeah.

[00:55:10] Good enough.

[00:55:11] Especially when it comes to fit.

[00:55:14] Mm hmm.

[00:55:15] Like I feel like the biggest regrets I have about clothing are when I'm like, this fits well enough.

[00:55:22] And then like, no, it doesn't.

[00:55:24] Like I should, I shouldn't have bought this thing that like doesn't really fit me.

[00:55:27] Like that's when I have like real consumer guilt about like, cool.

[00:55:32] Well, I don't want to wear these pants because they don't really fit me, but I haven't worn, I just bought them and I'm never going to wear it.

[00:55:38] Like, yeah.

[00:55:39] Um, or I do wear them and then I'm like, but this doesn't feel good to wear.

[00:55:43] Like being willing to actually like ask myself like, is this, do, can I move around in this?

[00:55:52] You can't see it, but I'm like moving around.

[00:55:54] Um, like, yeah.

[00:55:56] Like, is this comfortable?

[00:55:59] Like, is it too small?

[00:56:01] Is it too big?

[00:56:02] Am I later going to be like, actually, I don't like the way this sits on me.

[00:56:06] And like some of those things can be addressed later.

[00:56:11] I was really resistant to wearing belts for some reason.

[00:56:15] And I just bought a belt for a couple of pairs of pants where I'm like, these are just like a little too big where they like don't fit quite right.

[00:56:20] So some things are, you know, solvable.

[00:56:25] Maybe you get your clothing tailored.

[00:56:28] I hear that's a thing that some people do.

[00:56:30] It's something I've always had an intention of doing, but taking the things to the place.

[00:56:36] Yeah.

[00:56:37] Huge barrier.

[00:56:38] Huge barrier.

[00:56:39] Um, so yeah, there are some things that are solvable, but also being willing to be like,

[00:56:45] this isn't right.

[00:56:46] And I'm gonna wait a little bit longer.

[00:56:50] I'm doing a little more work to like get to the thing that is.

[00:56:53] Yeah.

[00:56:54] Absolutely.

[00:56:55] Yeah.

[00:56:55] No more aspirational clothing purchases.

[00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:56:59] I've been like sorting like clothes or like when I see an article of clothing that I like want,

[00:57:05] I'm like, is this high maintenance or low maintenance?

[00:57:07] High maintenance is like if I plan for it and I like I have to wear a particular undergarment

[00:57:14] and a particular like whatever to pair it with.

[00:57:16] Sometimes I will love a thing so much that I'm like, yes, I'm willing to do the work.

[00:57:20] But like most days I am not trying to like work hard to get dressed.

[00:57:25] Yeah.

[00:57:25] And so most of the clothes that I have in my closet and that I accumulate should be low

[00:57:31] maintenance.

[00:57:31] And like that means something different to everybody.

[00:57:33] But for me, it means like it fits.

[00:57:35] It's comfortable.

[00:57:37] And like if it's a top, it works with most of my bras.

[00:57:39] It works with most of my pants or whatever.

[00:57:43] Like it doesn't have to be like I'm on this part of my menstrual cycle.

[00:57:47] So I'm not bloat like, you know, I have a few things like that where I'm like, I'm

[00:57:50] just going to make this work because I really like it.

[00:57:52] But for the most part, my clothes need to be easy to wear.

[00:57:55] Yeah.

[00:57:56] And I had never thought about that before.

[00:57:57] Yes.

[00:57:58] I really love the look of like square neck tops, but they are never right with the kinds

[00:58:04] of bras that I want to wear.

[00:58:06] And I'm not willing to be like, it's fine that you see this bra in this weird way in

[00:58:10] this top.

[00:58:11] So I'm like, I have to stop buying.

[00:58:14] I have to stop trying to get square neck clothing because I won't.

[00:58:17] It doesn't.

[00:58:18] I was on the same journey.

[00:58:19] I do have one square neck top that has like a built in bra that works for me.

[00:58:24] I love a built in bra.

[00:58:24] I love a built in bra.

[00:58:26] I'm like, keep my tits where they're supposed to be and then we're good.

[00:58:29] But I've had the same where I'm like, I love this puffy sleeve, but it's like slightly off

[00:58:33] the shoulder and you will never find me in a strapless bra pretty much ever again for

[00:58:39] the rest of my life.

[00:58:41] Because why?

[00:58:42] Because why?

[00:58:42] So like, I'm just simply not going to wear that.

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:44] And it's I've also found like, sometimes I'll see something that I like that I'm like,

[00:58:50] I just like this, but that doesn't mean I have to have it.

[00:58:53] So I will like send it to you or I'll like take a screenshot of it or like or take a picture

[00:59:00] of it if I'm out in person.

[00:59:02] And then I'm like, OK, I now have this thing because I have a picture of it or whatever.

[00:59:07] I've like had an experience with it, but I don't have to try to figure out how to put

[00:59:11] it on my body and wear it and whatever.

[00:59:13] And that has also been helpful.

[00:59:15] Being a person having a body complicated can be fun.

[00:59:19] Yeah.

[00:59:20] This is not the conversation that I thought I was we were going to have, but it was so

[00:59:24] great.

[00:59:24] Yeah.

[00:59:25] Yeah.

[00:59:26] It was wonderful.

[00:59:27] Thank you, Shauna.

[00:59:28] Yeah.

[00:59:28] Yeah.

[00:59:29] Thank you.

[00:59:30] Do you want to be found on the Internet?

[00:59:31] I'm not super on the Internet.

[00:59:36] I love that for you.

[00:59:38] Well, folks, you will only have access to Shauna on our show.

[00:59:41] It's a Bipod exclusive.

[00:59:43] Or through the Patreon.

[00:59:44] Yeah.

[00:59:45] Yeah.

[00:59:45] You can find Shauna on Patreon.

[00:59:48] Wow.

[00:59:48] That was perfect.

[00:59:49] On your Patreon.

[00:59:50] On the Bipod Patreon.

[00:59:54] Oh, that will remind me.

[00:59:55] A thing I've been wanting to mention is we've been experimenting with there's like a chat

[01:00:00] functionality that Patreon has introduced.

[01:00:05] So you can have little like group chats in there.

[01:00:08] I don't think it sends notifications to people when something gets posted there.

[01:00:13] I think you have to like log into Patreon and then it will give you a notification.

[01:00:17] Probably so people aren't getting blown up with emails all the time.

[01:00:20] So I wanted to say that in case you're on the Patreon and you're like, oh, I didn't know that.

[01:00:24] And you want to come explore the chat.

[01:00:28] Yeah.

[01:00:29] Yeah.

[01:00:29] I was putting some great queer TikToks in there for you all.

[01:00:35] Yes.

[01:00:36] Really, this was born out of me wanting someone who would actually watch the videos.

[01:00:41] Christina.

[01:00:43] I sent Christina too many things so she like can't watch them all.

[01:00:47] Or I have to preface and be like, you're going to think this is too long, but watch it

[01:00:50] anyway.

[01:00:52] Yeah.

[01:00:53] You do prepare me for the long ones.

[01:00:55] Christina wants us to go back to Vine.

[01:00:57] I do.

[01:00:58] 15 seconds.

[01:00:59] If it could just be Vine again, honestly.

[01:01:01] Sometimes I'm like, this is a short film.

[01:01:03] This is too much.

[01:01:06] But now you have an outlet.

[01:01:08] But really, you're doing the good work to bring it to those of us who don't regularly

[01:01:17] engage with most social media.

[01:01:19] So I have to thank you for that.

[01:01:22] You're welcome.

[01:01:23] It's a great review.

[01:01:28] Yeah.

[01:01:29] After this episode comes out, I will on Instagram maybe do something fun in the stories.

[01:01:34] Ask people for some.

[01:01:36] Invite people to share.

[01:01:37] Yeah.

[01:01:38] Share your fits.

[01:01:39] I'll ask for some like outfit inspiration.

[01:01:42] We'll get some.

[01:01:43] We'll do some fun aesthetics.

[01:01:45] So if you're listening to this close to when it comes out, come see what we're doing.

[01:01:49] If you want to make a little like mood board.

[01:01:52] I love a mood board.

[01:01:53] Yeah.

[01:01:53] Give us your style mood board.

[01:01:56] Yes.

[01:01:56] Absolutely.

[01:01:58] Yeah.

[01:01:58] Well, as you know, we always say goodbye at the end of every episode.

[01:02:03] Would you like to join us in this time-honored tradition?

[01:02:05] Yes.

[01:02:06] And in the time-honored tradition, I will probably miss the mark.

[01:02:09] Right.

[01:02:11] That's fine.

[01:02:12] That's actually better for the people.

[01:02:14] Okay.

[01:02:16] Well.

[01:02:18] Goodbye.

[01:02:21] That was perfect timing.

[01:02:26] Thanks for listening to this episode.

[01:02:28] The Bi-Pod is made possible by our patrons.

[01:02:30] You can find us on Instagram at thebi-pod and on our website, thebi-pod.com.

[01:02:36] This show is produced and edited by me.

[01:02:40] And our theme song is Coming Home by Snowflake.

[01:02:42] Thank you.

[01:02:43] That's right.

[01:02:43] Thank you.

[01:02:43] Thank you.

[01:02:43] Thank you.

[01:02:43] Thank you.