Girls like Girls Minisode

[00:00:00] Hi, Christina.

[00:00:01] Hi, Evan.

[00:00:02] Happy Girls Like Girls Day.

[00:00:04] Thank you, and a happy Girls Like Girls Day to you as well.

[00:00:08] Why? Thank you.

[00:00:09] What an excellent extended universe.

[00:00:12] Yeah.

[00:00:13] Yeah.

[00:00:13] So we're talking about the GLG extended universe, mostly the book, but of course, originally

[00:00:21] it was a song and a music video by Hailey Kiyoko.

[00:00:25] We might have some spoilers, but this is a mini-sode, so we're not going to get too far

[00:00:31] into the book, which we sometimes tend to do on our media episodes.

[00:00:36] So it's been out for a while.

[00:00:38] I think that even if you knew everything that happened in the book, you would still

[00:00:40] enjoy reading it, but just a heads up, we have read it.

[00:00:44] Yeah, yes, we have read the book.

[00:00:46] We're about to talk about it.

[00:00:46] We did the homework, brag.

[00:00:49] Evan, what is your relationship with the GLG universe?

[00:00:55] Do you remember the song coming out?

[00:00:57] Have you seen the music video?

[00:00:59] What do you think about Hailey Kiyoko?

[00:01:01] The floor is yours.

[00:01:03] Yeah, so I have heard the song.

[00:01:06] I haven't seen the music video actually.

[00:01:09] Oh, we have to watch it.

[00:01:10] And I didn't know that it was a canon event.

[00:01:16] It in fact was a canon event.

[00:01:18] So in case anyone else didn't know, in the afterward of the book, she kind of explains

[00:01:24] like she was sort of broke.

[00:01:28] It was like her music career wasn't going in the way that she thought it was.

[00:01:35] And it's something like she had $500 and her producer or manager, I don't know,

[00:01:43] someone she had a business relationship with were like, OK, well what happens now?

[00:01:48] And at the time remixes were really popular and it was like, well, do we pay someone to do a remix?

[00:01:55] Or do we make a music video?

[00:01:57] What do we do?

[00:01:58] They decided to make the music video despite that like not being what everybody else was doing

[00:02:03] at the time.

[00:02:04] And then the music video blew up.

[00:02:08] And that is the.

[00:02:09] Saphx apparently love music videos.

[00:02:13] Yeah, I didn't know that that was the Haleke Yoko origin story.

[00:02:17] I was just like, I don't know, wasn't she in some Disney movie show?

[00:02:22] I think so.

[00:02:22] She was.

[00:02:24] But in my mind, I didn't do any investigation.

[00:02:28] I was just like, so that must be it.

[00:02:30] But in fact, no, it was girls like girls.

[00:02:33] Additional lore.

[00:02:34] Yeah, I saw her on tour with Panic of the Disco in 2018.

[00:02:44] I think in Portland and she was amazing.

[00:02:48] It was a great time.

[00:02:50] She actually had a show down here on my birthday a couple years ago and I wanted to go and

[00:02:55] then I don't remember why I didn't buy it.

[00:02:58] I too love the song.

[00:03:00] It's been on a couple of our playlists, I think it's foundational.

[00:03:03] We also once both put not girls like girls, but the song.

[00:03:09] Was it cherry no sugar?

[00:03:11] Oh, sugar at the bottom sugar at the bottom sugar at the bottom.

[00:03:15] Yeah, the whole line is a no sugar at the bottom.

[00:03:17] But yeah, sugar at the bottom is the title of the song.

[00:03:19] Yeah, we both put it on a playlist, but it was like there were like two different

[00:03:22] versions of the song or something single in the album.

[00:03:24] Yes.

[00:03:25] So I put it on the first and then you put it on and it didn't notify you

[00:03:30] because there were two different versions and I was like, did Christina like explicitly

[00:03:33] want to book this album or this playlist with the song?

[00:03:38] It turns out you just didn't realize it already came out there.

[00:03:41] No, I like had looked at the playlist and then I figured that if I was going to

[00:03:44] repeat myself, it would tell me that it didn't.

[00:03:47] I think it was for our petty playlist.

[00:03:50] I think so, which I mean can you blame me that is such a good song for

[00:03:53] on a petty playlist.

[00:03:56] Yeah, I adore Heli Kiyoko.

[00:03:57] We've talked about her on the show before as well.

[00:04:00] Yes, in our That's Problematic episode where we talked about the complexity of

[00:04:05] like people talking about bisexuality and like separating someone's individual

[00:04:14] experience with a bisexual person from bisexuality in general.

[00:04:20] Like just because you had a shitty bisexual ex doesn't mean all bisexual

[00:04:24] people are shitty.

[00:04:25] Yeah, slash just because someone talks about their shitty bisexual ex doesn't

[00:04:29] mean they're talking about you.

[00:04:30] Yeah.

[00:04:31] Yeah, the complexity of it all.

[00:04:33] So she is a longtime friend of the show.

[00:04:38] But yeah, I think it's really cool to see her get to extend the GLG

[00:04:44] universe into a novel.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:04:47] Because the song, I guess there's like sort of a narrative, but like

[00:04:52] not quite, not really.

[00:04:55] And so it was like cool to see her kind of explore like the concept and

[00:05:01] the things that she was bringing to the song when she made it to a different

[00:05:05] format as a creative person.

[00:05:07] I really like enjoy seeing that.

[00:05:10] And I actually not to brag, but I listened to this audio book before

[00:05:15] you read this book, which has never happened on the show.

[00:05:19] Certainly not in fiction.

[00:05:21] But Haley Kiyoko reads the audio book, which I think adds to the experience.

[00:05:27] Yes.

[00:05:28] I also ended up listening to the audio book and she does a good job narrating

[00:05:36] it.

[00:05:37] They also incorporate some music into the audio book, which is kind of cool.

[00:05:42] Like just a little bit there'll be sort of some like background music as

[00:05:46] like the scene swells.

[00:05:48] So it gives it a little bit of a cinematic quality.

[00:05:51] Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:05:53] We should give a quick summary of the book.

[00:05:57] So the main character, Koli, her mom dies before the events of the

[00:06:04] book and so she has to go live with her dad who she has not had a

[00:06:08] relationship with.

[00:06:13] And was she in Los Angeles before?

[00:06:16] San Diego.

[00:06:17] She was okay.

[00:06:17] Yeah, I knew she was somewhere in California.

[00:06:19] So she was in San Diego before she moves to the Pacific Northwest to

[00:06:23] live with her dad and it's a weird time because her mom has just

[00:06:30] died and also she's with a person who is her parent but who

[00:06:34] she really doesn't know.

[00:06:37] Curtis.

[00:06:37] Yes.

[00:06:39] And by chance she meets this girl, Sonia and gets kind of

[00:06:46] embroiled in Sonia's friend group and it's the story of her

[00:06:54] relationship with Sonia and trying to find her place in

[00:07:01] this in a world without her mom in it and as a teenager who

[00:07:06] is trying to figure out who she is.

[00:07:09] That's a great synopsis.

[00:07:11] Thank you.

[00:07:11] Impressive.

[00:07:15] Yeah, the whole story takes place over the summer in a small

[00:07:20] town in the Pacific Northwest which and it's also like early

[00:07:25] odds coded so there's like cell phones but they're like flip

[00:07:29] phones.

[00:07:30] I mean it's not coded, it's in the text.

[00:07:33] It's not subtext.

[00:07:34] Yeah, that's true.

[00:07:39] There's like AIM messaging and live journal.

[00:07:43] Live journal features prominently.

[00:07:46] It does.

[00:07:47] It's interesting that like that is a period piece but here we

[00:07:49] are.

[00:07:51] I really enjoyed kind of the nostalgia of it all.

[00:07:55] I think that the book deals with some pretty heavy, I

[00:08:01] think themes and even like some of the events in the main

[00:08:04] character, Koli's life but it feels like the things that

[00:08:10] happen especially like socially make sense for the age group

[00:08:14] of the characters which I always appreciate in like a YA

[00:08:19] novel and it just like made me feel nostalgic for a

[00:08:24] childhood that I didn't have because I did not grow up

[00:08:26] biking around the Pacific Northwest by myself.

[00:08:31] I have helicopter parents but it was like a cool, it really

[00:08:36] felt like a period piece and like a way that felt very close

[00:08:39] to home.

[00:08:39] I liked it.

[00:08:40] Yeah, I agree.

[00:08:43] The way technology is incorporated is also interesting

[00:08:47] because it is both very much a part of it and also it's

[00:08:51] pre-social media and so there's a lot of like what is this

[00:08:59] like live journal post mean or like your aim status says that

[00:09:06] you're online but then when I messaged you suddenly it

[00:09:09] said that you were offline and like the minutiae of

[00:09:12] trying to figure out like how is another person thinking

[00:09:15] and feeling and both like having that kind of internet

[00:09:24] information without it being like well I saw you post on

[00:09:29] your Instagram story that you are like at this party or

[00:09:33] you know whatever.

[00:09:35] Yeah, it's like minutiae but it's not excruciating.

[00:09:38] I mean I think the characters find it pretty excruciating

[00:09:41] but as a reader it's yeah it's oh yes the characters

[00:09:44] it's certain I mean watching someone's aim status just like

[00:09:48] go down when you message them that is excruciating.

[00:09:50] Yeah, but it's not like I haven't really watched the

[00:09:55] Kardashians in a long time but I know that they like for

[00:09:58] a while we're incorporating a lot of Snapchat and

[00:10:00] people were complaining that they were just like

[00:10:02] essentially watching Snapchat and that is not what the

[00:10:05] book felt like but it was like incorporated in a way

[00:10:07] that like felt very immediate and I was like wow I too

[00:10:10] have like watched the bubbles move while waiting

[00:10:13] for somebody to text or whatever.

[00:10:15] Talking about this is making me think about Zan Romanov's

[00:10:18] book Look which does deal with social media the main

[00:10:23] characters use an app that I think is called Flash

[00:10:26] which is essentially Snapchat it has perhaps some like

[00:10:33] Instagram elements to it but that features very

[00:10:39] prominently in the book and the book is I mean it's titled

[00:10:46] Look it's about being looked at and the difference between

[00:10:50] being seen and perceived or like understood.

[00:10:54] Being consumed or being.

[00:10:56] Yes, it's a great book by the way.

[00:10:59] It is a great book and I hadn't made that connection

[00:11:06] before but there's like an interesting thing happening

[00:11:10] there.

[00:11:11] There's some thematic overlap.

[00:11:14] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:17] I also like how there's like a few different representations

[00:11:22] of queerness in the book like different characters have

[00:11:27] different sexualities and also like different journeys on

[00:11:31] their sexuality which I think is cool.

[00:11:34] Not surprising given that Heli Koko wrote it but I kind of

[00:11:39] enjoyed the unfolding and the discovery process and that.

[00:11:44] Yeah, it felt very organic.

[00:11:49] Yeah and also devastating.

[00:11:54] There's like a scene where Koli the main character

[00:11:58] is at this girl's house and they have to take a shower

[00:12:04] or something or take showers and she's like in the girl's

[00:12:07] bathroom by herself but being like oh this girl I have a crush

[00:12:10] on uses these products and I'm naked in her house

[00:12:14] and I'm gonna wear her pajamas and I'm like I'm having

[00:12:16] flashbacks.

[00:12:18] A trope that exists in the book that you actually I

[00:12:22] think pointed out to me when we were discussing the book

[00:12:24] I was like that's a good point.

[00:12:25] I've been thinking about it is one of the characters

[00:12:30] a love interest in the book who.

[00:12:33] I don't think it's a spoiler to say.

[00:12:35] Sonia has a boyfriend who like you immediately when you

[00:12:38] meet him you're like this guy sucks we hate him.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:43] Immediately.

[00:12:44] Because I think the first actually the first time

[00:12:45] we see him as he almost hits Koli with his car.

[00:12:48] Yeah and is not apologetic about it.

[00:12:51] Which is like a great introduction to be like you

[00:12:53] hate this guy.

[00:12:55] And so that's Sonya's boyfriend and then like Sonia and

[00:12:58] Koli have like a complicated thing that evolves

[00:13:02] and you know as Sonya is exploring her queerness

[00:13:05] and you pointed out that there's like a trope of

[00:13:09] like bisexual or multi attracted women having

[00:13:12] like shitty boyfriends that they have to then

[00:13:15] like leave for a woman.

[00:13:16] Yes.

[00:13:17] And I was like interesting I can think of several

[00:13:19] examples of that in media but then I was like

[00:13:22] I can also think of several examples of that in real life.

[00:13:26] So is it just that is it a trope or is it the most

[00:13:28] boyfriends or shitty open in a question.

[00:13:30] Well I think as a literary device it's like a way

[00:13:37] to show this person is multi attracted without

[00:13:43] detracting from the love story that you're

[00:13:46] trying to push forward like if the boyfriend is

[00:13:49] an asshole it's much easier to be like I want

[00:13:53] you to break up with him and be with me.

[00:13:57] Whereas like if the boyfriend is a good person.

[00:14:00] It's more complicated.

[00:14:01] Yes.

[00:14:02] And maybe feels bad to be like you should break up

[00:14:05] with him and date me.

[00:14:08] I guess that also exists in media like among

[00:14:10] like straight did abics too.

[00:14:13] It does however.

[00:14:15] The reason it's complicated with bisexual people

[00:14:18] is because I mean particularly bisexual women dating

[00:14:24] men but I guess in any mixed gender bisexual

[00:14:31] relationship there's messaging about like well

[00:14:33] you're not really queer unless you are dating

[00:14:37] someone of the quote unquote like same gender

[00:14:43] or someone who is also queer.

[00:14:47] But specifically gender queer like you can't

[00:14:52] both be bisexual and be a man and a woman.

[00:14:56] That's not allowed.

[00:14:59] So that is like part of it and it's like yeah

[00:15:07] sometimes bisexual women have shitty boyfriends

[00:15:11] and there are like I think structural cultural

[00:15:15] reasons that happens.

[00:15:17] But also you happen to be a bisexual woman

[00:15:21] with a great boyfriend.

[00:15:22] Yeah 10 out of 10.

[00:15:23] Yes.

[00:15:24] Would recommend.

[00:15:28] And it's just messy and I think in some ways

[00:15:36] it can be used as like a shortcut to

[00:15:47] a lot of different things.

[00:15:48] Like actually someone doesn't have to date

[00:15:51] multiple different genders in one book

[00:15:54] to show that they are multi attracted.

[00:15:56] You can just say that they are and that can be true.

[00:16:00] That is actually done really well in This Is Me Trying.

[00:16:03] There is a variety of multi attracted characters

[00:16:06] and for the most part it is just taken as fact

[00:16:12] like there's some you know discussion about

[00:16:16] how that feels or like who people are attracted to

[00:16:19] but it's not like well this person has to date

[00:16:22] this many people in order to like show

[00:16:25] that they are pansexual.

[00:16:27] They can just be pan.

[00:16:29] Yeah they can just exist.

[00:16:32] Which I happen to love like let multi attracted people

[00:16:37] date as many people as they want in the text

[00:16:39] but also it doesn't have to be that.

[00:16:42] The other thing that I think feels weird and tough

[00:16:48] about this is because it's often the bisexual woman

[00:16:54] in question is in the closet.

[00:17:00] And so she is like hiding her queerness

[00:17:03] by staying in a relationship with this shitty guy.

[00:17:07] And so even if the text doesn't explicitly say

[00:17:12] I think it can add to this vibe of like

[00:17:15] now she's come out or by the end of the story

[00:17:19] she's gonna come out and leave behind her shitty boyfriend

[00:17:22] and she's gonna be in a same sex relationship

[00:17:24] and now she's really queer.

[00:17:26] But she was queer the whole time.

[00:17:28] She was queer when she had a shitty boyfriend

[00:17:29] she was queer when she was in the closet

[00:17:31] like all of those things can be true at once.

[00:17:37] Yeah I think the shitty boyfriend

[00:17:41] is often kind of like a stand in for like

[00:17:45] compet.

[00:17:47] Like it's like she just has to be with a man

[00:17:49] because she's closeted.

[00:17:50] And I think it's useful to have that kind of representation

[00:17:52] because I think that that is an experience

[00:17:54] that a lot of people have.

[00:17:56] And like you said there are structural

[00:17:58] realities to that like bisexual women

[00:18:00] multi attracted women experience

[00:18:02] higher rates of domestic violence

[00:18:04] and many other things.

[00:18:05] Like that's a very that's not a mini so conversation

[00:18:07] but it is happening here.

[00:18:10] But I think like that like most other short hands

[00:18:15] you end up missing a lot of things

[00:18:18] that would be interesting to explore

[00:18:20] especially if you're trying to portray

[00:18:22] a pretty complex experience

[00:18:25] and sort of like by flattening a character.

[00:18:27] Yeah and it's tough because

[00:18:30] like most things

[00:18:31] any one instance is not the problem.

[00:18:35] Yeah totally.

[00:18:36] It's fine that this happens in this book

[00:18:39] but also I would love more books

[00:18:43] where that isn't kind of what's happening.

[00:18:46] Something a book that I did like

[00:18:48] is Some Girls Do by Jennifer Dugan

[00:18:52] and there is a closeted bisexual

[00:18:57] in this book who does like fall in love

[00:19:00] with a lesbian, with a woman

[00:19:06] and there's a guy that she is like hooking up with

[00:19:11] who wants to date her

[00:19:13] but she doesn't want to date

[00:19:15] she's kind of what's the word that I want

[00:19:18] commitment averse.

[00:19:20] Who's it like a totally fine guy?

[00:19:23] Like he's not gross

[00:19:26] he is a teenage boy but like

[00:19:29] he's inherently gross

[00:19:30] but he's kind of nice enough

[00:19:32] and like there's a scene where she like

[00:19:35] they hook up and she like sneaks out

[00:19:38] and he's like disappointed that she like left without saying goodbye.

[00:19:42] Like he's emotionally available to some extent.

[00:19:46] Yeah and I was like

[00:19:48] I appreciated that

[00:19:52] it wasn't just like again the shitty boyfriend

[00:19:58] and like in another

[00:20:00] in the alternate reality of that book

[00:20:02] maybe she could have been emotionally available

[00:20:05] and dated this guy and been very happy.

[00:20:06] As it turns out she was not emotionally available

[00:20:10] and she didn't really want to date him

[00:20:13] but like that's not

[00:20:14] doesn't have anything to do with you know

[00:20:16] whether she's by or not

[00:20:17] or attracted to men.

[00:20:19] Yeah and there is in Girls Like Girls

[00:20:21] there's another guy character

[00:20:23] whose name I have forgotten.

[00:20:26] I have also forgotten

[00:20:27] but that one I almost want to like you know

[00:20:29] not people like us discover it

[00:20:31] but yeah there is

[00:20:32] just to say there's a variety of like representation of boys

[00:20:36] and like that character in particular

[00:20:39] like has some interactions with Coley

[00:20:41] that feel like a very different flavor

[00:20:44] than the reactions that we have

[00:20:46] with the shitty boyfriend

[00:20:47] and I appreciated that because I feel like

[00:20:49] even though we still kind of have that like

[00:20:51] the flat compact character

[00:20:53] we see like teenagers

[00:20:56] dealing with big things

[00:20:58] differently than each other

[00:21:00] which I think is great.

[00:21:02] Yeah it's one of the things that's nice

[00:21:04] in having an ensemble

[00:21:05] you get to approach things from a couple different

[00:21:08] like angles.

[00:21:11] I also like that there's

[00:21:13] another character in this book

[00:21:15] that Coley

[00:21:16] I don't know explores with

[00:21:21] or something

[00:21:23] like you get to see Coley

[00:21:26] I mean she's coming of age

[00:21:28] and she's trying to figure out

[00:21:30] who am I attracted to

[00:21:33] what do I want

[00:21:36] in a way that

[00:21:39] I think is really well done.

[00:21:40] Yeah I also appreciate

[00:21:43] the way that the book is like mixed class

[00:21:46] which I feel like we often

[00:21:48] I think it's getting better

[00:21:49] but generally in YA

[00:21:50] like everyone is just happens to be rich

[00:21:52] in a big city at boarding school

[00:21:53] and that's that.

[00:21:56] Okay, that's

[00:21:58] those are definitely books

[00:21:59] that get to be very popular

[00:22:00] but YA is a very broad category

[00:22:04] Yeah I didn't mean to microaggression either

[00:22:07] but I just I always appreciate

[00:22:09] saying that in a book

[00:22:10] where like it would have been easy

[00:22:12] for everyone to be rich

[00:22:13] and instead there's like

[00:22:15] a mixed class experience

[00:22:16] even in settings where it's not like

[00:22:18] they're away at boarding school

[00:22:19] it's easy to like paper over class

[00:22:22] and have it just be like

[00:22:23] everyone is quote unquote middle class

[00:22:25] and that's not like interrogated in any way.

[00:22:27] Yeah, it's nice to like

[00:22:29] not have everything feel like a 90s sitcom

[00:22:31] in that way.

[00:22:33] and I think that is done well.

[00:22:36] Yeah

[00:22:36] Yeah it's a great summer read

[00:22:38] like I said it all happens in the summer

[00:22:40] and you still have time

[00:22:41] so if you need one more summertime read before

[00:22:45] the leaves change

[00:22:45] if that happens in your area

[00:22:48] we have many months left of summer so

[00:22:51] but if you don't

[00:22:52] I recommend it

[00:22:53] Yeah great as an audiobook

[00:22:55] Yeah excellent

[00:22:56] Very good

[00:22:58] Look at us talking about a piece of media

[00:23:00] in a mini-soad

[00:23:01] Incredible

[00:23:05] Well

[00:23:07] Goodbye