Chappell Roan and Parasocial Relationships minisode

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi Evan. Hi Christina. Today we're talking about parasocial relationships. I don't know if you all know this, but this is definitely a Chappell Roan Stan podcast. We've been listening to Chappell since before y'all know about her. And actually, we have proof of that because Chappell Roan is on some of our like, playlists from back in the day. So yeah, yeah. I try to make sure that like people know the word tastemakers. Yeah, I mean, if you go back into the Bi Pod back catalog,

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: you recommend Chappell in a couple of our like recommendation episodes. Yeah. So I just like wanted to get the credit, please send me my trophy. Anyways, Chappell Roan is having such a moment right now. And actually, a few days ago, Evan, you sent me like the graph that's going around the internet right now that's like shows her like streaming numbers and it just like skyrockets.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Earlier this year, she had about a million listens per month, which is big. But also like many artists have more streams than that. And then between like March or April, and now she's at like 40 million streams a month, which is is 40x growth.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Which anyone in Silicon Valley would like kill their grandmother for. Like, that's a lot of growth. Yeah. Really, really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And like, as someone who like hasn't experienced that just like seeing that graph, like made me so stressed.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, so then a couple days later, so this is a couple of days ago, Chappell Roan like posted on social media saying like, hey, I need to set a boundary. Because people keep coming up to her in person and like touching her and like wanting to take a picture with her and whatever. Also, people are like stalking her family and calling her by her government name, which like is public information but is not like the name of her project.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And she like very clearly is like, I know people are getting mad about this. I turned the comments off because this is not a public discussion. This is me telling you my boundary. Like don't touch me if I don't know you. And we can link to that post in the description.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was all like very reasonable, I feel. And also made me think about like our relationship with celebrities. And in the post she says, you know, like, I'm so thankful for my fans. I know that like you all are the reason why like I'm getting to like have this career and like I've been working on this project.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: She refers to Chappell Roan as a project for, you know, 10 years. But like I need to preserve my piece and she's actually talked about this at a few like talk shows and things like that about how she like it's really important to her to maintain and to keep some things private and to keep some things for herself.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Like to have a sustainable career where she doesn't just like lose it, you know. And so now the people are like are discoursing about it and so we too would like to discourse about it.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And I think to that last point you made about this being a thing that she's talked about, my understanding or my like impression is that it's her performing in drag is also kind of like part of this. Like when she started her music career, it was under her government name.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And she kind of changed. I mean, a lot of things happen. She got like dropped by her original label and like all kinds of things have changed in her career. But I saw a little bit of an interview where she was talking about how like if you listen to her earlier music, it's a little bit more like alternative, a little like, I don't know, sadder. It's less like bubble gum pop.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. And she talked about like doing that on tour being like really draining. You like get up on a stage and you're like, no, I'm going to sing you a sad song. And now, like when she performs, it is a performance in like many ways. Like she's doing it in the drag.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And like she's her songs are like very I'm doing a hand motion, like not that they are not that there's not like emotional depth or like sadness in any of them, just that they are more they're doing a specific thing.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like they're bigger. They're yeah.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: They're very performative. Yeah. And that that is intentional.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. It's so wild. The other day, there's like a couple Instagram accounts that are like the Chapel Rowan archives, like posting videos. And I saw a clip of that was like the straight version of Red Wine Supernova.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Like she wrote it and then and then there's like an interview that went with it. And she was like, yeah, that version was like never going to be good.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I had to be gay.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She also for listeners, she wrote Red Wine Supernova before she'd ever had any kind of like sexual interaction with a woman. So that's cool. I just love that for representation. But

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Anywho, yeah, she's had a journey. And I think it's like very fair for her to set boundaries. And she kind of framed it as like you wouldn't just walk up to a random woman on the street and like, take a picture of her or like touch her like everybody would know that that was weird.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's basically what you all are doing. Like you don't know me, like you might be a fan of my work. But like that's the experience that I'm having is I'm literally a random person and you're like coming up to me and like in other contexts that wouldn't be okay. So it's not okay in this context either.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were talking about how like it's that's like the parasocial relationship of it all is like to us she's not a random person. She's like someone who we listen to like in our homes every day. But to her, we are random people and that is can be disconcerting to the brain.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, and I think this is true of any celebrity. But like in her case, particularly, she got so much bigger so quickly, like she's had a 10 year long career. And yet, like, so much of the growth has happened in like the last six months. So there's also like not that's not a lot of time to like adjust to a totally different scale of being

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: known and interacting with people. And I think the scale is part of what like makes this complicated all around. Because I like, as a fan, I don't think there's anything wrong with like wanting to tell someone that you appreciate their work or like even wanting to take a picture with them in theory.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are some behaviors that we can probably all agree are like not cool, like doxing someone or following them around or like various forms of stalking and stalking adjacent like invasions of privacy.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But things like you know, telling someone that you like their work

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: in and of itself, not weird. Even maybe like, yeah, asking somebody to take a picture with them, like, theoretically fine. The problem is that it's not one person. Yeah, saying I like your work or asking for a picture. It is

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: hundreds and thousands of people doing that, which is really draining on would be really draining on anyone. And also, the power dynamic is such that like, it's really difficult for the person being asked for those things to say no, like say no, I don't want to take a picture with you, particularly because probably I'm just out having trying to have a regular person life.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And you like, I'm not wearing any makeup or whatever the thing is that someone else wouldn't have to like interact with. It's like difficult to say no. But as the person asking for the thing, there is, I imagine this sense of like, well, this person should be flattered, which I don't think is like an inherently wrong thing to think like, sometimes when people talk about fan interactions,

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: there's like not a ton of nuance to it. And they're just like crazy fans, which I don't think is fair. And also it like the way that people behave is worth critiquing. And so I'm like, how do talking about the that line or that nuance is interesting and weird. But I think it is a weird, it's a weird power dynamic, because the power is moving in multiple different directions.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the famous person has more power by virtue of being famous, but then they are like put in a position where there could be negative consequences, like where then they sort of don't have the same level of power because somebody on the internet being like this celebrity was super rude to me, like is the sort of thing that could go viral and like have negative impacts or whatever.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They're also the one who's like afraid for their safety. Yes, I was like, Who are you? Yes. Yeah, I should have led with that. But yeah. Yes. But I then I think the person be like fan is like, I think maybe sometimes the reason that like people are mean to celebrities on the internet is this sort of like, well, you're a person with power, and I am not a person with power. And so then I'm going to like,

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: empower myself or enact power by like being mean to you. Like people in the comments of things being like, you're asking for it by being famous, which is a gross thing to say. But I can imagine if you're like, well, you have all of this power. So you should like, I don't know.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And chapel even mentions that in the post, she talks about like, people are going to say that this is selfish or that I should just be grateful, but I'm not grateful. It's weird. Like, she's like, I should be able to like do my like make my music, play the shows, make things for my fans, and also like go to the movies and like a normal person.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, which again, I think is fair. And if like those lines of like what behavior is appropriate or not, those lines are going to like look different for everybody, particularly among fans, I think.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And also like context matters a lot. Like if you're to meet and greet, of course ask for a picture. That's like the thing. But also like if someone just at the grocery store, maybe just like let them be a person but it's also like, I don't know, I'm thinking about it's also interesting because we like live in Los Angeles, I feel like you and I have like had more like casual celebrity sightings than somebody who maybe like doesn't live here. Yes.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I one time used to volunteer for this nonprofit. And I was at a training once with them. And Lauren Graham was there. Lorelai of Gilmore Girls. And she was just like sitting at the table behind me also doing the training, which was very cool. I was like, is that Lauren Graham? It was like a writing like it's called it's called right girl but it was like a writing thing. And it was like all women.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like everybody there was a writer, but like, there was just only the one Lauren Graham, you know? Yeah. And during a break, I was like, well, she's like here volunteering. So like maybe I shouldn't say anything, but also like we're all supposed to socialize. So like, should I just ignore her because she's Lauren Graham? Like that also doesn't seem right. And so during like a break in the training, I turned around and I was like, I'm sorry, are you Lauren Graham? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, wow, it's like so cool that you're here. Like, I don't want to, you know, invade your

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: privacy. I just wanted to say like, I'm a really big fan of your work. And I think it's awesome that you're like, volunteering with this organization. And then we like chatted about Gilmore Girls very briefly. And then talked about the organization and like how she came across it and whatever. And I saw like one of the organizers kind of like what like looking to like see how the interaction was going to go. Because I assume that they like had some, you know,

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: concerns like about having her there. And it was like fine. And then later she helped me cut a cake, which was really sweet of her. Yeah. But like in that, I don't know that like raises the question for me of like, if I do see like Chapel Rowan on the street, like, it would be hard for me to be like, I'm going to ignore you because I know who you are. But also like maybe that is the thing to do.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Well, and I think in the context of the story that you just shared, that like also feels a little bit different because again, you're like, this is a moment where we're supposed to be socializing with people. And she was like in a context where you interact with people.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she wasn't like at Trader Joe's. Yes, I guess like if we if we go back to be like, would you approach a random lady with this? You would probably talk to a random lady at that was the whole point. Yeah.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But you probably wouldn't like walk up to a random lady in the grocery store and expect her to like, interact with you. Maybe you make meaningful eye contact and they're like, I like your shirt or whatever. But that's probably the extent of the interaction that you're gonna have.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. And like, even with that, even of the like, in this context, you're supposed to talk you. Like I still wouldn't like, I wouldn't be able to be like, hey, random woman, I know your name and also some things you've done. So I was like, even that feels weird, but I would just kept it to be like I'm a fan. I watched Game of Thrones all the time. I love that you're here doing this thing. And it was fine.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are some celebrities who I think like,

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: depending on many factors would be like really open to that.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And some people who are like,

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: please don't even look at me, like let me live.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's hard to know people's boundaries

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because we don't actually know them.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We just know their public persona.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well and like even in Chappell's case

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to go back to like speed and scale,

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: she got so famous so quickly

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that there's like not a lot of room

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: for feeling out like boundaries or expectations.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so like Lauren Graham, for instance,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty famous person was on a long running

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: very successful television show.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But you like weren't having that interaction with her

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: at like, I don't know the height of Gilmore Girls,

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: which is part of it.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And also probably at this point,

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Chappell-Rone is more famous than Lauren Graham was

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: at the height of Gilmore Girls

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because music, the internet, whatever.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think like timing is also part of it.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a story that I wanna share

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of the time where like I was the fan

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that afterwards I was like,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, I think that wasn't good.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: A couple of years ago,

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I was at the Austin Television Festival,

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a really cool television festival in Austin,

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: as the name would suggest.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like the second or third year of the festival.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was still like pretty small,

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: different than kind of what my impression is

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of how it is now that it's been going on

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: for like a decade.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so at the festival,

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to this big panel about Roswell,

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: which was a show that I grew up watching with my family.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was one of the like tent pole events.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So after the panel,

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I was walking back to like the hotel

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: where sort of the central hub of things.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw outside Shiri Appleby,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: who is an actress who's in Roswell.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was just,

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this was shortly after a show that she had been on

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: called Life Unexpected had ended,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which I had really loved.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's like standing there

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like waiting for a car or something.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like,

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of want to go say hi,

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly because I had like watched her shows

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like with my mom.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like,

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to like tell my mom

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that I met Shiri Appleby.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just walked up and I was like,

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: hi, I'm a fan of your work.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I really loved Life Unexpected.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like something that I watched with my family.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was wondering if we could like take a picture

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: for my mom.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she says yes.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And we do take a picture.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And like at the time that I approached her,

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like the only one.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think like at the same time

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that I walked up to her, someone else also walked up.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And then by the time me and that person

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: had like had our interactions,

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: then suddenly there was like a crowd of people

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: all wanting to like interact with her.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like wasn't totally processing this

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in the moment, but as I was thinking about it,

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, she is like in a transitional moment,

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like she's going somewhere else.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She seems like maybe she is tired,

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: which like could be a lot of things.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I, she could have said no

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that she didn't wanna take a picture,

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: but also like, like there just felt weird about it.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't thinking in that moment like,

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, once someone walks up to her,

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it like breaks the seal,

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but it felt really different thinking about like,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, now 20 people wanna have an interaction with her

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: compared to like one person interacting with her.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was something where like she was totally nice.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: She, you know, I don't know what her interaction was

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: after I walked away, but I was like,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I just feel kind of like I wish I hadn't done that.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and also it's like a weird,

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like an event where you're supposed to like

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: get to like see her and like she's gonna answer questions.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that also kind of breaks the seal,

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like again, you didn't run into her at Trader Joe's.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my like neutral place in this conversation.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think that's such a good point

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that like that one interaction like maybe would be fine.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But then like when we think about the other person,

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like the celebrities experience,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like if there's one Evan delightful,

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: if there's like 55 people wanting to have a picture,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that's like just a different experience.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're not necessarily responsible

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: for other people's actions, but also like it's weird.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so weird.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like something that you and I have talked about

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: offline about like the internet dog pile

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where like when someone makes a mistake

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: or does something shitty online

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and then it feels like the entire internet

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: wants to like come for them.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like critiquing people is fair.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: However, it's different when one person says,

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: hey, that was fucked up

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: or like tries to call you in about it.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That is different from 100,000 people

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: are like, hey, that was fucked up.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And some of them are also gonna like not just say

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that thing you did was wrong.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They're gonna be like, you're a terrible person

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and a variety of other things that are just not helpful.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the internet was such a mistake.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Our brains are not equipped.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just not.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably we wouldn't have this podcast

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: were it not for the internet.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We could distribute it.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We could start broadcasting over the radio or something.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But you were right.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Our brains are not designed

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: for comprehending scale in that way.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And capitalism is obsessed with scale.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything has to get.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And Silicon Valley people

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: willing to kill their grandmothers.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, like that kind of wanting everything to grow

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: constantly bigger and bigger and bigger

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is like antithetical for what is good

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: for our brains and personhood.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one of my, actually probably my very favorite poet,

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Olivia Gotwood.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been a fan of her for a very, very long time.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: She also has had, I mean, I think she got big kind of,

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, also poetry, I feel like

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just a different scale.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not Chaperone, good for her.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But she became very famous in the poetry slam scene

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and now she's written a novel that just came out.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: She's doing some screenwriting.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So her being in the public eye has shifted,

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think in a more slow trajectory than Chaperone.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's been, I feel like I've seen that happen.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like I have a parasocial relationship with her,

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but also kind of a social relationship

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because I've taken classes with her,

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: small classes with her.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And one time at a show, I was in line,

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but her show, I was in line for the bathroom

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and she walked by and she was like,

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: "'Oh my God, Christina, hi, how are you?'

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, she knows me

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and we have mutual friends.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But one time, this was many years ago,

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I took a class with her and she was like,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: "'If you ever want me to look at a poem of yours,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: just email it to me and I will give you feedback.'

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were like, wow, so generous.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I did that maybe once

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and never heard back from her, which is fine.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to email me back.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But then on her podcast that she has,

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: she talked about how people will send her poems

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and she's like, I can't look at them.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't have the capacity to do that, which is fair.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was a very small scale,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: respectful conversation, at least from what I saw

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: on Twitter where some people were like,

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: well, but you have said to people,

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you can send me your poetry.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's fine if your capacity has changed,

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but just know that you have directly offered that.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's fair that people are gonna send that to you.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean that you have to,

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it's fine if your boundaries change,

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: but also you told us that we could.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she was like, I feel like an asshole.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And people were like, no, it's fine.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But just know that that's probably why

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: people are sending you their poems.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that every author is having that experience.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've kind of seen her talk about

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the way that she speaks in public

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: or the things that she offers to do

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and put herself out there in particular ways

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way that that's changed

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: as she's been more and more in the public eye,

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: which is just interesting and weird for the brain.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I recently had a very interesting solo,

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: parasocial experience

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that didn't involve the celebrity directly.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But my very favorite podcaster, Jamie Loftus,

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I listened to her three or four days a week,

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at this point, she has so many shows.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And you and I had met her before

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: at a Bechtelcast show.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But her dad passed away a few weeks ago

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and she shared a lot about the experience,

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: shared a lot about him.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was very moving to me,

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: which is what making art is about.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And she has a book about hot dogs

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that I famously am reading.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And a couple days,

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe the day after her dad passed away,

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I went to a Dodger game and got a veggie dog.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was eating a hot dog,

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about Jamie Loftus and her work,

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and also her dad.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was with my dad at the game

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was like, this is like,

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just thinking about her.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I felt very moved by the things

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that she shared about her experience.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I also am somebody who is like,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I do a lot of thinking and a lot of work

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: around death and grief to contextualize for the people.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I posted on my Instagram story

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a picture of my little hot dog.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was eating a hot dog,

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking of at Jamie Loftus, whatever.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, which I'm allowed to do, that's totally fine.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But then it showed me that she couldn't see my message

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: because she doesn't follow me.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: She has those settings set up, which is fine.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But then I had a moment of being like,

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, she won't see it, so she won't know.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like,

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: is that actually, she doesn't have to know.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually fine.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I can have this experience and she can have her privacy.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I had a moment of being like,

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, I wanted to access you in this way.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted you to know that I was having these feelings

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: or I was thinking about your work in this setting.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But actually, you don't need to know that.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You just need to go be a person

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and do what you have to do.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to check myself

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: because for a second I was like,

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: no, but then she won't know.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, it's fine.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we need to do another episode talking about,

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the words are,

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but sort of that experience of

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: what is it that we're wanting from other people.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And also how do you interact with people's work?

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That makes me think of,

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to go to a lot of literary events in LA,

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: like book launches and stuff.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And less so now,

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but also I know a couple of authors

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: from classes and things and then whatever.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I always feel really weird

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: when I meet someone whose work I know and like,

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's in a context where they are just a person.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not their book event or whatever.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just at the book event.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I won't say I liked your book,

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but then it also feels weird to be like,

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that you wrote this book

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know that you wrote this book

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm just not gonna acknowledge it

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because I don't want them to feel weird

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or I don't want it to feel,

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I worry about people feeling like,

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, well you have to say

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that you liked my book or whatever.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you do like someone's book,

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: should you tell them that you liked their book?

[00:28:47] Yeah.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: For the record, if you like my book, please tell me.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not famous enough for the scale

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to be overwhelming at this time.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have that same feeling of like,

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: if I see Chopper on, am I gonna be like,

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever you're just a person?

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, now I will because like she's made

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that very clear, but also like I, yeah.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We should do an episode about what do we want

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: from other people because I have so many anecdotes

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of now.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's weird and complicated in general

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the internet just like 40Xs it.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Famously.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we didn't solve any problems today.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that what we were supposed to do?

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's put a pin on it and talk about

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: more parasocial relationships at a different time.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say briefly, we get messages in our Instagram

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: DMs especially from people who talk about like listening

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to the show and feeling like we're their friends

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and those messages make me feel so warm and good

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because like I know what that feeling is like

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: on the other side of like with Jamie Loftus

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: for example, being like, this is comforting.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a person I consume all the time

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or whose work I consume all the time.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And just like the first time that we got a message

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: like that I was like at the airport and I just like cried

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was like, I can't believe people are listening

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and having that same feeling that I also feel.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just don't want other students to feel

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: like self-conscious about sending us

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: nice Instagram messages please do.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That's like a good avenue for that.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll let you know if that ever changes.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If we have 40X growth.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I will be like, we love you

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and we can't respond to all of your messages.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I will, you'll find me on the moon.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: If we like 40X in a month, no.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was over a couple months but yeah.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, 20X in a month still, I don't know.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, no.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Which we need to wrap up so we can't get all into this

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's also one of the benefits of being small.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: A couple hundred people listen to this podcast every month.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Not all of them send us messages

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: which makes it very easy to get to know people

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: on Patreon and respond to the Instagram messages

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that we get and that kind of thing.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah and there are things where I'll be like,

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: oh this listener would love that.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna send it to them.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you do that too,

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the couple of people who are really into reading

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: are like, I've read this book.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I treasure that.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, goodbye.